My good friend and fellow Sandpit author Ray has for some time been trying to convince me that my concerns about Islam in this country are unfounded and his argument is essentially that “it won’t happen here” but when I here and see the atrocities being committed in Iraq by people who are Australian citizens I can’t be as sanguine
Another shows Sharrouf dressed in camouflage fatigues and posing with his three young sons, the flag of the Islamic State displayed behind them. In this image, just like their father, the boys are dressed in dull green fatigues. And, like dad, they are all holding guns. They appeared to be aged around four, six and seven.
But it is the image that security agencies believe is Sharrouf’s son, struggling to hold the head of the decapitated soldier, that is utterly shocking. The little boy is dressed as if heading out for a picnic. He is wearing a pair of checked pants and a blue shirt, with the insignia, Polo Golf Kids. He has a green cap on his head and a blue plastic watch on. Over his shoulders he has ammunition pouches.
There have been other photos posted from this town square in Raqqa by Sharrouf — about a week ago he posted photographs of decapitated heads on spikes. Sharrouf’s friend and fellow Islamic State fighter, the former boxer Mohamed Elomar, was also pictured, a severed head in each hand, a wide grin on his face.
In those images it appeared that the men had been killed recently. However, in the most recent photographs featuring Sharrouf and his son, the heads had blackened and bloated, having been dead for a week. In the photograph, the sandals of other children can be seen in the background, suggesting other kids may be waiting for their turn to hold the head.
The thing that concerns me is that neither Sharrouf nor Elomar have been positively influenced by their lives in this country and I can’t escape the nagging thought that the fault for that has something to do with the sort of “hands off” and “don’t critque any aspect of an immigrant’s culture” mindset that is integral to the ideology of “multiculturalism” as it has been practiced here If any sort of cultural critique is avoided or actively discouraged then we get the likes of Sharrouf and Elomar going on their head chopping holidays. But it actually gets worse that the reports in the Oz suggests in fact the brutality of these Muslims is so horrible that I was only able to have the most perfunctory look at this report (VERY HORRIBLE GRAPHIC IMAGES) which contains imaged of young children and babies murdered and decapitated in the name of ALLAH. I’m sorry but there is nothing that justifies this sort of deliberate brutality and any religion that would endorse such a thing has no place in this country either.
So I can’t help but hope that the US airstrikes kill every last one of these murdering scum bags Heck I’m almost convinced that there is an argument for using tactical nukes on these fanatics.
Now I know that apologists for Islam will tell me that the majority of Muslim Australians are not all like Sharrouf and Elomar and I have no trouble accepting that. However that small truth hides a bigger and more important fact and that is that at its heart Islam is just not suitable or at all consistent with a modern secular society that embraces personal autonomy and freedom of thought. Which naturally suggests that we should be very cautious indeed about accepting any further Muslim immigrants and that our security services are not whistling Dixie when they talk about the threats we face from Jihadists like Sharrouf and Elomar.
With great sorrow Comrades
Iain Hall's SANDPIT 
Iain, to start with, this incident was in Syria, not Iraq. In Syria it is Muslims fighting to overthrow the Muslim Govt, not in the ‘the name of Allah’ per se but in the name of getting rid of a dictator. The images are nonetheless very disturbing but you have made a lot of mistakes and drawn a lot of wrong conclusions here. Let’s get a few facts straight:
1. Both Sharrouf & Elomar were BORN IN AUSTRALIA. They are not immigrants, so your conclusion that “we should be very cautious indeed about accepting any further Muslim immigrants” is baseless.
2. Sharrouf was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 2002 – 12 years ago at age 19. He’s a lunatic, as those photos and his comments clearly confirm.
3. In 2005 Sharrouf was involved in a failed (and insane) plot to blow up Australia’s Lucas Heights nuclear facility. He was caught and convicted to 5 years jail. It’s the sort of thing you’d expect a lunatic to do (or try to do).
4. I don’t know if Elomar is also mentally ill, but he looks it. And in those emails he sent you he certainly sounded unhinged – I said as much in the comments on that thread. Why he got into this is anyone’s guess because not so long ago this (now) 29 yo was an Australian boxing champion and had a promising international career ahead of him. Drugs perhaps?
The point is, Iain, that the antics of these two over in Syria hardly suggest “it could happen here”. In fact it suggests the opposite, as these two are clearly nutters and had to go overseas to carry out their crazy ideas … because they couldn’t do it here. Obviously.
And if they try to return they will both be arrested and (this time) put away for a very long time.
Maybe you should take a more considered approach like Tony Abbott’s Coalition Govt is:
I think you (and GD) can both sleep well in your beds tonight knowing that these two AUSTRALIAN BORN nutcases were (and will be) unable to cut your heads off (unless you both decide to go “on holiday” to Syria).
Ray
There is at this point in time no effective distinction between between Syria and any part of the entity called “the Islamic state”
They are both the offspring of immigrants so that is a rather pointless distinction.
He was scamming the DSP Ray and as such I think it would be safe to assume that he is no schizophrenic.
No Ray you can’t use mental illness to excuse Islam fro any of its pernicious characteristics
To put it into the AFL terms why do people get so passionate about barracking for Collingwood? Is that a mental illness? Or is it a sort of religious indoctrination? Just think of being a Muslim rather like being a Collingwood supporter on roids.
The thing is Ray in this interconnected world when people have a connection with ths country their perncious example can have an effect here even if they never return here
Sadly we don’t have a capital sanction though
Well I’m a blogger rather than a Politician Ray so I can say what I think without having to sugar coat it as Abbott is obliged to do
I never sleep well Ray but the potential for Jihadists in this country s not the reason
Ray
You are rather like Jon Faine:
Source
Iain,
1. The point is you clearly inferred that the two were immigrants when the truth is they are not. I suspect that you didn’t even realise that and just took one look at their names and assumed they were born overseas and either emigrated here or arrived as refugees by boat. The fact they are descended from Lebanese immigrants who arrived here more than 30 years ago does not support your ‘be wary of accepting any more muslim immigrants’ conclusion. Not one little bit.
2. What makes you qualified to re-diagnose Sharrouf as ‘not schizophrenic’ based on his so-called scamming of welfare? Do you know any schizophrenics, Iain? I do. And I also know that scamming & scheming is almost 2nd nature to many of them. They may be ‘mad’ but they are not stupid and, in fact, schizophrenics can be very adept at putting complex (often illegal) schemes together. I’ve known one to defraud banks. The other thing is, that once you’re diagnosed schizophrenic you are schizophrenic … for life. It is a permanent illness, Iain, with no cure. I think I’ll take the Doctor’s diagnosis over yours.
3. I’m not excusing anyone, Iain. I’m saying that in this case it seems mental illness is the driver for this bloke, not relgion. What you’re doing though is using the actions of one (certified) lunatic to condemn a whole people.
4. I won’t even bother to address your football analogy – it sucks.
5. And yes, these two might inspire other nutjobs to replicate them but how successful do you think they’d be at pulling anything off over here? Your point is what? I agree that this means the Australian authorities need to up their anti-terrorism surveillance, just ‘in case’ some idiot plots something over here, but that’s all it means. It doesn’t require a crackdown on muslims and muslim immigration overall. For all you know, it might be Johnny the lunatic Aussie bogan who lives in your neighbourhood who decides to go ‘headhunting’ around Dayboro mate – watch out. You’ve made no point here.
6. Yes, you’re a blogger and you can say what you like, Iain, but should you? Case in point, I notice that this post has had a lot of views today meaning it’s being widely read. Do you think it’s socially responsible to put such a skewed view on this, one that spreads fear and hatred of muslims throughout the country? The more a group is demonised, the more likely it is that some of the more extreme (and lunatic) members of that group will strike out. You’re actually helping to perpetuate the very thing you say you want to avoid, Iain – a Jihad against Aussies on Aussie soil. Better keep that gate locked and the gun loaded, mate. And sleep with one eye open because Mustafa the Madman (or Johnny the lunatic bogan) is a comin’ to git you.
And please don’t quote that bloody dickhead Bolt at me and his ridiculous post on Jon Faine. What on earth has that got to do with anything? I don’t know why Faine didn’t discuss the photo on air today and nor do I freakin’ care.
FWIW though: Faine is a JEW, Iain, so maybe he thought he’d be seen to be biased on the issue if he expressed a view – GEDDIT?
Mustafa the Madman will not be headhunting Iains head around Dayboro. He is in Syria fighting the Jews and is brining a head back to the Caravan park when he gets home. He wont be caught because he flew out on Norms passport and the authorities do not knows he is gone. Well until now. He still owes me 50 bucks for Laura f*cks. Five of them.
Ray
In our age of Multiculturalism, and distinct ethnic Gettoes in places like western Sydney it really does not make taht much difference its the pernicious values propagated that matters.
I’ve got many years knowledge of that illness and its sufferers
Well I think that Religion IS a mental illness which in some iterations is fairly benign and in others its utterly pernicious.
Maybe I should have used Saint Kilda as my example 😉
Why should we take the chance? There are millions of refugees who we could choose so why should who choose anyone who is more likely to take up Jihad. Heck if we want to help out those in “the Islamic State” lets offer a place to those Christians who fled up the mountains They are likely to make better Aussies than any Muslimand think of how much we will save by not having to monitor them for Jiadist plots.
That is what tey invented Shotties for Ray 👿
I honestly don’t follow may stats Ray But I also don’t think that I’m being Irresponsible in my commentary either Remember how polite I was To Mohomand Elomar? In any event don’t you think that its part of our freewheeling Aussie culture to be upfront and lacking in artifice when we argue the toss about anything and If a Muslim can’t cope with taht then shouldn’t or response be “toughen up princess?”
Ray you must surely realize that if we defer to either Mustafa the Madman,or Johnny the lunatic bogan that they will only see it as a sign of weakness?
Iain, there is no suggestion that these two acted out of anything but individual lunacy and if you had some solid proof to the contrary surely you’d cite that in support of your theory. Sure, being among other muslims (as they no doubt were) who ‘talk’ about the situation over in Iraq & Syria may have influenced them to fly over and try their hand but out of 500,000 muslims living in Australia you can’t point to the antics of just a few and say, “this is why we should restrict muslim immigration”.
You have made no case whatsoever to support your contention that this incident and a handful of other examples overseas means “this could happen over here”. As I said to you in the earlier thread, we have been more threatened by immigrants from Europe & England than by Muslims.
And I’m not suggesting you “defer” to anyone, only that by stirring up the pot so much (as you do) you are bound to get the loonies seeing that as a reason for attempting some kind of revenge. The art of war, Iain, I’m pretty sure tells you not to provoke a reaction unless you want one. See what I mean? You actually seem to want a terror attack on our soil – just so you can say “I told you so”, I guess.
But it’s not a “weakness” to keep your powder dry.
Try this for a theory, Iain:
1. You (and GD) write multiple, endless anti-muslim posts here at Chez Hall.
2. So much so that one Mohamed Elomar takes it on himself to contact you via email.
3. You argue with the nutjob Elomar in a series of exchanges, further inflaming him.
4. You also post those exchanges up here at Chez Hall.
5. Elomar then flies to Syria and engages in ‘Jihad’, holding up the severed heads of enemies.
6. You point to that as ‘evidence’ that muslim immigrants (of which Elomar is not one) are bad.
Do you feel just the slightest bit responsible, Iain?
You should.
Ray
If we think like you do and just give in to their belligerence and intimidation then its just a small step from there to letting their bonkers religion rule our lives, The only way to deal with religious nut jobs is openly and without letting them change our lives.Thus we shouldn’t become sanguine when some fool tries to placate a tiny Muslim Minority by insisting on Halal sausages at a school Barbie. Nor should we stand idle when they want to mutilate some poor child’s genitals because their God told then to do so. We certainly should not be silent when these idiots post Death Porn Selfies.
What it boils down to is this Ray I write about Religion at my blog because its one of the subjects I am fascinated by and My interest goes back to childhood. In fact I think I was arguing about religion before I finished primary school, I suffered a sort of Mini-inquisition when I was bailed up by a group of boys who could not understand why I did not believe in God, I copped a bit of a hiding that day but I was just too stubborn to surrender to intimidation then and now that I’m a cantankerous old codger I am no less stubborn. You see I am passionate about few things in my life but personal autonomy and personal liberty are right up there. Thus I think that there is no mileage in kowtowing to or ignoring pernicious religious expression that would see us all enslaved.
That said I do appreciate your argument that many Muslims are decent people but if they are living and being part of our community then they should have learned by now that we Aussies are an utterly irreverent mob who take none of the religon malarkey that seriously and if their faith is strong then they will have no trouble accepting those Aussie values and Aussies who critiques aspects of their religion. If they can’t accept critiques of their religion then they should be on the next plane out of here to any Muslim country that is more to their liking.
All my life I have argued about the right for all of us to Fuck with any other consenting adult as we please Yet Islam would put to death those for whom that is a same sex partner or an unmarried woman. All of my life I have argued for the rights of women and girls to be acknowledged as fully equal human beings to any man. All of my life I have argued for tolerance and diversity yet Islam would impose a horrible subservient conformity upon everyone if it could do here what it does else where.
So I won’t feel just the slightest bit responsible when a few Muslims are upset about my generally civil and polite criticisms of their religion and I likewise won’t feel just the slightest bit responsible if they subsequently commit some crime or atrocity either here or overseas because I have been warning my fellow Aussies about Islam for years.
No those who should feel just the slightest bit responsible re those who have looked the other way when a Muslim man has beaten his wife, because that is permitted under Islam. Just as those who fail to speak up about the atrocious antisemitism so evident in Islam should feel just the slightest bit responsible,for the propagation of hatred evident in that harassment of Jewish children on their school bus the other day.
As the old saying goes Ray “all it takes for evil to flourish is that good people to do or say nothing” I’m not going to say nothing when I see evil in the world no matter which deity is invoked to justify it I will speak up against it here because that precisely why I have a blog in the first place.
Iain, I am not “giving in to muslim belligerence and intimidation” any more than you are. I am not being bullied or intimidated by our muslim citizens, and neither are you. I am not being threatened by them and neither are you. My way of life has not and will not change one little bit due to muslim immigrants and neither has or will yours (oh, apart from the odd halal sausage – FFS !)
The 500,000 muslims living in Australia (many of them born here) pose no tangible, recorded or proven threat to any of us. But, from reading your manifesto (or cyber-pledge) above, one would think we’re under seige in Australia when in reality life here has never been better and more free. Your so-called “critiques of their religion” amounts to singling out a particular group and displays an extreme intolerance on your part.
Sure, you can highlight atrocities overseas but what you’re not understanding, in my opinion, is that what we are currently seeing in the Middle East in places like Syria & Iraq is Islamic extremism turning in on itself. That’s because they have failed in their pathetic attempts to terrorise the western world and are now fighting amongst themselves. Let them – this is their death throw. Let them kill each other off until they come to their senses and realise there’s no way they can continue this senseless Jihad meme. The war between Islam and the West is all but over, Iain, and Australia has escaped unscathed.
I’ll try to put this as plainly as I can, Iain, at the risk of offending you but here’s the bottom line in my opinion.
You are sanctimoniously claiming to be “the good man” speaking up against “the evil of Islam” while claiming people like me are “doing nothing” and, as such, letting that “evil flourish”. That is plain wrong. The evil you speak of is NOT flourishing, not in Australia. Muslims have NOT imported their ways over here and by and large are obeying our laws and living normal lives. Our authorities are dealing (very well) with the few bad apples – they are NOT “doing nothing” and they do NOT need your help.
In short, Iain, Australia does not need your “warnings” and all you’re doing (purposely in my opinion) is stirring up hatred. And that works against a harmonious and peaceful society.
Ray
We live in the age of the internet and social media and as such the belligerence and intimidation need not be face to face That said I am more than happy to be polite and affable to anyone and everyone that I meet while I’m out and about I quite often see women wearing a Hijab when I go shopping and Its no big deal to me If I make eye contact I’ll smile just as freely as I smile at anyone else.
It boils down to a question of just how tolerant we are obliged to be of a totalitarian ideology Ray. While I am happy to accept that most Muslims here certainly don’t pose a threat to our society you can’t pretend that those who do don’t have some grand dreams of mass murder The ones enjoying the hospitality of Her majesty’s hotels in your home state quite clearly claimed to be making their dark plans in the name of Allah.
That’s not something I disagree with to be frank Ray and I’m pretty happy to see them kill each other and let God sort out who is right. However you can’t ignore the fact that there will be some of the hate and killing that will manifest among the local branch of the Muslim Diaspora the internet age guarantees it.
Ray Nothing you can say to me would offend me
I do try to be “the good man” but I was not trying to be any kind of “sanctimonious” by citing that very old aphorism, nor was I trying to single you out for any particular criticism either. I know that you personally do try to walk the walk that you talk here and Good on you for doing so. But I also suspect that if you came across a Muslim sprouting Antisemitic hate speech that you would not just look the other way would you? I can’t imagine that you would just look the other way and pretend the bile had not been sprayed now would you?
Its a case of hate the sin but love the sinner as far as I’m concerned Ray. I really hope that all immigrants can leave the animosities and cultural hatreds behind them when they come here and I’m delighted when they do. But with modern technology its a great deal harder to do than it was when my family made Australia its home. That’s the biggie and the reason that we should not be silent when someone Like Elomar or his mate big note themselves with Murder porn on Social media. If people like me or you stay silent then such atrocities become normalised. I am delighted to see Muslims coming out and condemning such things too and I think that I have said as much before. The public who might read this blog and my criticisms of Islam are not going to go out and harass that woman in the Hijab in Woollies but they might just have the courage to speak up when they hear hate speech from a Muslim because so many have internalised the message that Islam is a religion that you dare not criticise and that is not going to help social harmony either. Its about real engagement Ray and as you may recall from may emails to Elomar I’m not just about ranting about the evils of Islam I really do want to have a dialogue that tries to persuade the well intentioned religiously minded that they can be a good person without having to wear the straight jacket of such dogmatic collection of rituals.
We’ve probably done this to death, Iain, and maybe we should just agree to disagree. I do really think you are grossly exaggerating the so-called threat from Muslims in Australia and I can only repeat that there is simply insufficient evidence of that for you to adopt the hardline stance that you do.
The gang of three, America Australia, and Britain, created the problems in Iraq today. The invasion of Iraq was a war crime, based on a lie. John Howard is a war criminal, with blood on his hands. They created the problems there, now they can fix it. I will not be part of this warmongering team. I will offer no support to this lot of war f^ck wits. War breeds Terrorism, and I am sure Aussie Terrorists will be up there with the Taliban with terrorist tactics. Shalom, Richard Ryan.
Ray, they were born and bred by Muslim immigrants. Even with the civilised advantage of the benefits that Australia has to offer, democracy, education, health care, and dare I say Centrelink, they chose to return to hell-hole that their parents escaped from with the aim of continuing the murderous atrocities that their parents fled from. Worse still one chose to take his wife and sons with him.
Unfortunately they are not alone.
Suggesting that criticism of their culture is to blame for these atrocities is an irrational claim. No, Ray, these young men were radicalised in the muslim schools and mosques in Western Sydney where they grew up, not by reading Iain Hall’s Sandpit. Clearly the Western Sydney mosques are breeding grounds for further radical islamic terrorism.
Evidence, worldwide, is that Islamic terrorism is rampant yet you reckon we shouldn’t speak out against it?
Winston Churchill had it right when he said:
“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile – hoping it will eat him last”.
As for your earlier assertions that it is a small minority of muslims who are stirring up trouble, watch this video of a Lebanese woman replying to a muslim woman asking about ‘moderate muslims’.
Ray reckons:
Professor Peter Leahy, former Lieutenant-General and head of the Army (2002-2008) disagrees with your analysis. He states that Australia must prepare for an increasingly savage war against radical Islam.
Michael Krause, a former senior Australian Army officer responsible for planning the coalition campaign in Afghanistan, said he agreed “absolutely” with Professor Leahy.
For once, Ray, I hope you’re right. Unfortunately no amount of hiding your head in the sand is going to make this international crisis disappear. Thankfully, Australia is late to the party and we have the chance to avert the danger.
Appeasement isn’t the answer.
Australia take your medicine—–War breeds terrorism, invasion of Iraq was based on a lie.
MY way of thinking—when you f*ck a country the way Iraq is—you deserve what ever it takes to be punished. NO Aussie Jihadist before Howard plunged Australia into the Iraqi war, I would like to see Howard pay for his war crimes.
GD, I agree with some of what you’ve said but not most of it:
1. Sharrouf & Elomar are descended from Lebanese immigrants, who arrived here more than 30 years ago, long before the wave of Islamic terrorism began. Sure, Lebanon was a war-torn country but terrorism? No, the two were not influenced by their parents’ backgrounds to become terrorists themselves. They did not, as you claim, “chose to return to hell-hole that their parents escaped from with the aim of continuing the murderous atrocities that their parents fled from”. They went to Syria. Why do you continually embellish your comments with made up fantasies & assumptions like that?
2. I agree that the two were radicalised by one of the few bad seeds among the muslim community in Australia (which kind of contradicts your earlier claim that they were influenced by their parents). I’m not suggesting Iain’s (and your) muslim baiting & bashing was wholly responsible for them flying off to Syria, I am saying that it doesn’t help when you cast blanket condemnations on muslims based on the actions of a few. By all means “speak up” but do it fairly, reasonably, rationally and without hate & malice attached. The great bulk of muslims living in Australia do not deserve your o-t-t criticisms and I have no doubt that the online demonisation of them rubs off on the more extreme (and unhinged) among them.
3. Your criticisms also completely ignore the fact that Sharrouf (the one who had his kids hold up the heads) is a complete and utter nutter. Didn’t you see the 7.30 report where even his lawyer and the Judge in his 2005 case said he was a drug addict diagnosed with ACUTE paranoid schizophrenia in 2002 and that his plans to commit a terrorist act in Australia were more a delusion of grandeur than a serious attempt?
4. The retired army officers you quote were speaking of the earlier years post 9/11. Leahy retired in 2008. I’d suggest that since then the war against Islamic terrorism on Western soil has all but been won – think about it, when was the last terrorist attack on western soil carried out? It was about 2007, I believe. I don’t see this ‘war’ going on for 100 years, I see it being focused on the Middle East until they run out of support & resources. I’d give it less than 10 years to run.
5. I do not have my head in the sand and please don’t personalise your arguments. Our Govt – our COALITION Govt – does not have its head in the sand either and I trust them to keep us safe and be vigilant against any small cells or individuals among the 500,000 muslims living in Australia. So far that seems to be working fine but obviously you don’t agree. It’s ironic that by your continued outspoken alarmism, you are actually criticising the policies, actions & abilities of the very authorities you claim are a great government, GD. In this case I’m not.
And against my better judgement, GD, I just watched your video. Let’s get this straight:
1. It’s an American video.
2. The woman speaking is an American.
3. The woman claims – without any qualification or evidence whatsoever – that 15% – 25% of the world’s 1.2 billion muslims are “radicals”.
4. She lacks all credibility.
Sheez, and you put this up here as some kind of “proof”? Here’s a suggestion:
Give up arguing with the adults and go join some high school forum.
Second thoughts, you’d be outpointed there too.
Could you please stop insulting our intelligence with that sort of crap?
Ray said:
I didn’t say that their parents were influenced by their parents’ backgrounds, I said:
Ray then said:
You’re quoting his lawyer? And the judge nine years ago? Good grief. Sharrouf has committed terrorist and murderous attacks in Syria in 2014 after having the wherewithal and focus to get to Syria.
Were it not for the Australian government’s surveillance, he would be equally capable of committing such acts on his return. Thankfully he won’t be returning. However the other Australian muslims fighting in Syria will be returning here. I’m glad you have such faith in the government to stop any terrorist attacks on home soil.
All it takes is a back-pack filled with explosives and a stroll down to Wynyard or Southern Cross stations. That’s all it took in Britain. Of course any nutter could do that, but it has proven to be the sole prerogative of muslim extremists who have perpetuated such atrocities.
Islamic terrorism is worldwide scourge. Why you continue to trust that Australia is exempt is beyond belief.
Brigitte Gabriel was born in Lebanon. She experienced living during the civil war in the 70s.
Maybe she’s over-blown the numbers, needless to say she grew up under Islamic terrorism against her Christian community.
These statistics about Islamic communities are hardly reassuring.
Brigitte Gabriel’s argument is:
‘It is the radicals that kill. When you look at the lessons of history, most Germans were peaceful,yet the Nazis drove the agenda and as a result 60 million people died. The peaceful majority was irrelevant.
Most Russians were peaceful, yet the Russians were able to kill 20 million people. The peaceful majority was irrelevant.
The Chinese were able to kill 70 million people. The peaceful majority was irrelevant.
Prior to WW2, most Japanese were peaceful, yet Japan was able to butcher its way across South East Asia, killing 12 million people. The peaceful majority was irrelevant.
On September 11 we had 2.3 million muslims living in the United States. It took 19 radicals to bring America down to its knees; destroy the World Trade Centre, attack the Pentagon and kill 3000 Americans.
The peaceful majority was irrelevant.
Her closing statement:
It is time we take political correctness and throw it in the garbage where it belongs.
Can’t argue with that.
GD, Marrouf was certified as insane by Doctors, not by his lawyer or by the Judge, who merely confirmed it. Do you think the judge is lying? Anyway, what is your point about this? You’ve already defeated your own argument by acknowledging he won’t be able to return here (without being jailed).
As for your ridiculous defence of that ridiculous American woman, why on earth do you continue to advance so-called evidence of your radical stance by putting up such unsupported nonsense like that? And like those so-called stats in that Wiki link? What stats?
Look GD, you are becoming very tiresome and your simple/stupid method of arguing is not worth the time of day.
“at its heart Islam is just not suitable or at all consistent with a modern secular society”
Then again, neither is Judaism – unless it’s wrapped in layer upon layer of myth-making and justificaton, centuries of explaining away the various atrocities in the book of Genesis (not to mention Exodus, Numbers, and Judges. And Kings.). Modern Zionism has unwrapped many of those layers, the territorial claims (but what I want to know is: when are they going to resume the animal sacrifices that Jehovah clearly mandates as necessary?).
Or Christianity, really. At its heart, it’s still the religion that burned heretics at the stake because, shit, they were only going to burn alive in Hell, anyway and setting them on fire as a preview of whats in store for them in the afterlife gave ’em a chance to repent. You see – it was for their own good, really.
Oh, and despite all the fawning over the Dali Lama, tibetan buddhism was a religion where the priests lived in relative luxury and which featured a penal code involving – for instance – tearing people’s tendons out.
But hey: I’m an atheist. Maybe that makes me a bad person.
That was over 500 years ago, Paul. Christianity has evolved, Islam remains in the dark ages. Your attempt at equivalence is pathetic.
That was over two thousand years ago, your pathetic attempt at equivalence is even more glaring this time.
Why don’t you address the current Islamic atrocities in 2014, instead of atrocities that occurred in 500 AD or 500 BC?
Christianity only ‘evolved’ away from burning heretics at the stake some 300 odd years ago (and not uniformally) GD.
So it took some 1700 or so years for it to moderate.
Given its almost 600 years older than Islam, you are asking Islam to moderate 300 years quicker than Christianity did.
But in reality it already is – its a small minority who are still living in an extreme medieval world, its just there are still more of them out there running around than there are Christian extremists alas/
PKD
That is a rather poor argument because the obsession with “heretics” was never a consistent aspect of Christianity like any long standing religion has had periods of liberal and illiberal leadership.
Why would it matter that Christianity is older? The problem with your argument is that it contains a very clear misunderstanding about the nature of both Christianity and Islam. The former is like Judaism that spawned it a religion that has been subject to constant evolution since its inception, in fact its the ability to change that has kept Christianity fresh even after 2000 years it is able to cope with changes in our society quite well as it is reinterpreted for each new generation. I’m not saying its perfect but it is heading in the right direction.
Islam has always claimed to be the final and perfect revelation of Allah and as such it is held to be unacceptable to even attempt to have the sort of reformation it clearly needs to cope with modernity. To be frank the ideology of Islam is so much at odds with modernity and so immune to reform we would be better off without it in any shape or form.
Have you seen the polling about how many Muslims endorsed the 9/11 bombers or the actions of Hamas? Its not just a tiny minority that are a problem
That is a rather poor argument because the obsession with “heretics” was never a consistent aspect of Christianity like any long standing religion has had periods of liberal and illiberal leadership.
And that sentence doesn’t even make sense.
Are you trying to suggest that Christianity had some periods of ‘liberal’ moderation prior to 300 ago? If so, name them please! I’ve never heard of a moderate period of Christianity, and certainly prior to the printing press (and its been a long slow process of moderation since then), so I’d be keen to hear all about it. I’d be happy for you to prove me wrong!
Its not just a tiny minority that are a problem
Really? So if its not a tiny minority, then how big is this minority?
What percentage of the 1.6 billion or so Muslim followers do you think are fanatical terrorists Iain?
But hey: I’m an atheist. Maybe that makes me a bad person.
Actually the only thing being an atheist makes you is a bad scientist! 😉
PKD
Muslim opinion polls.
Quite shocking!
Terrorism
ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative)
Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is “acceptable”.
Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).
Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.
27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.
ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
37% believe Jews in Britain are a “legitimate target”.
Pew Research (2013): At least 1 in 4 Muslims do not reject violence against civilians (study did not distinguish between those who believe it is partially justified and never justified).
Pew Research (2013): 15% of Muslims in Turkey support suicide bombings (also 11% in Kosovo, 26% in Malaysia and 26% in Bangladesh).
al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden
Pew Research (2007): 5% of American Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (27% can’t make up their minds). Only 58% reject al-Qaeda outright.
Pew Research (2011): 5% of American Muslims have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (14% can’t make up their minds).
Pew Research (2011): 1 in 10 native-born Muslim-Americans have a favorable view of al-Qaeda.
al-Jazeera (2006): 49.9% of Muslims polled support Osama bin Laden
Pew Research: 59% of Indonesians support Osama bin Laden in 2003
41% of Indonesians support Osama bin Laden in 2007
56% of Jordanians support Osama bin Laden in 2003
Pew Global: 51% of Palestinians support Osama bin Laden
54% of Muslim Nigerians Support Osama bin Laden
MacDonald Laurier Institute: 35% of Canadian Muslims would not repudiate al-Qaeda
World Public Opinion: Muslim majorities agree with the al-Qaeda goal of Islamic law.
Muslim majorities agree with al-Qaeda goal of keeping Western values out of Islamic countries;
(Egypt: 88%; Indonesia 76%; Pakistan 60%; Morocco 64%)
ICM Poll: 13% of Muslim in Britain support al-Qaeda attacks on America.
World Public Opinion: Attitude toward Osama bin Laden:
Egypt: 44% positive, 17% negative, and 25% mixed feelings
Indonesia: 14% positive, 26% negative, 21% mixed feelings (39% did not answer)
Pakistan: 25% positive, 15% negative, 26% mixed feelings (34% did not answer)
Morocco: 27% positive, 21% negative, 26% mixed feelings
Jordanians, Palestinians, Turks and Azerbaijanis. Jordanians combined for: 27% positive, 20 percent negative, and 27 percent mixed feelings. (Palestinians 56% positive, 20% negative, 22 percent mixed feelings).
Pew Research (2010): 49% of Nigerian Muslims have favorable view of al-Qaeda (34% unfavorable)
23% of Indonesians have favorable view of al-Qaeda (56% unfavorable)
34% of Jordanians have favorable view of al-Qaeda
25% of Indonesians have “confidence” in Osama bin Laden (59% had confidence in 2003)
1 in 5 Egyptians have “confidence” in Osama bin Laden
Pew Research (2011): 22% of Indonesians have a favorable view of al-Qaeda (21% unfavorable)
Gallup: 51% of Pakistanis grieve Osama bin Laden (only 11% happy over death)
44% of Pakistanis viewed Osama bin Laden as a martyr (only 28% as an oulaw)
Zogby International 2011: “Majorities in all six countries said they viewed the United States less favorably following the killing of the Al-Qaeda head [Osama bin Laden] in Pakistan”
Populus Survey: 18% of British Muslims would be proud or indifferent if a family member joined al-Qaeda.
Policy Exchange (2006): 7% Muslims in Britain admire al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
9/11 Attacks
al-Arabiya: 36% of Arabs polled said the 9/11 attacks were morally justified; 38% disagreed; 26% Unsure
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/09/10/166274.html
Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (7% “fully”, 6.5% “mostly”, 23.1% “partially”)
Pew Research (2011): Large majorities of Muslims believe in 9/11 conspiracy
Violence in Defense of Islam
40% of Indonesians approve of violence in defense of Islam.
Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
15% of Egyptian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
13% of Indonesian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
12% of Jordanian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
7% of Muslim Israelis say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam
Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed
NOP Research: 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons;
NOP Research: Hardcore Islamists comprise 9% of Britain’s Muslim population;
Another 29% would “aggressively defend” Islam;
Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
86% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
30% of Indonesian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
76% of Pakistanis support death the penalty for leaving Islam
51% of Nigerian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for religious or political ends acceptable.
Terrorism Research Institute Study: 51% of mosques in the U.S. have texts on site rated as severely advocating violence; 30% have texts rated as moderately advocating violence; and 19% have no violent texts at all.
Pew Research (2013): 76% of South Asian Muslims and 56% of Egyptians advocate killing anyone who leaves the Islamic religion.
Pew Research (2013): 19% of Muslim Americans believe suicide bombings in defense of Islam are at least partially justified (global average is 28% in countries surveyed).
Sharia (Islamic Law)
83% of Pakistanis support stoning adulterers
78% of Pakistanis support killing apostates
Center for Social Cohesion: 40% of British Muslim students want Sharia
ICM Poll: 40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK
GfK NOP: 28% of British Muslims want Britain to be an Islamic state
NOP Research: 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam;
MacDonald Laurier Institute: 62% of Muslims want Sharia in Canada (15% say make it mandatory)
World Public Opinion: 81% of Egyptians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
76% of Pakistanis want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
49% (plurality) of Indonesians want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
76% of Moroccans want strict Sharia imposed in every Islamic country
World Public Opinion: 64% of Egyptians said it was “very important for the government” to “apply traditional punishments for crimes such as stoning adulterers.”
Pew Research (2010): 77% of Egyptian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
58% of Jordanian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
36% of Indonesian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
82% of Pakistanis favor floggings and amputation
65% of Nigerian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
Pew Research (2010): 82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
70% of Jordanian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
42% of Indonesian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
82% of Pakistanis favor stoning adulterers
56% of Nigerian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
Pew Research (2013): 72% of Indonesians want Sharia to be law of the land
Pew Research (2013): 81% of South Asian Muslims and 57% of Egyptians suport amputating limbs for theft.
Honor Killings
Turkish Ministry of Education: 1 in 4 Turks Support Honor Killings
Civitas: 1 in 3 Muslims in the UK strongly agree that a wife should be forced to obey her husband’s bidding
BBC Poll: 1 in 10 British Muslims support killing a family member over “dishonor”.
Middle East Quarterly: 91 percent of honor killings are committed by Muslims worldwide.
95% of honor killings in the West are perpetrated by Muslim fathers and brothers or their proxies.
A survey of Muslim women in Paris suburbs found that three-quarters of them wear their masks out of fear – including fear of violence.
Two-thirds of young British Muslims agree that ‘honor’ violence is acceptable.
Pew Research (2013): Large majorities of Muslims favor Sharia. Among those who do, stoning women for adultery is favored by 89% in Pakistanis, 85% in Afghanistan, 81% in Egypt, 67% in Jordan, ~50% in ‘moderate’ Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, 58% in Iraq, 44% in Tunisia, 29% in Turkey, and 26% in Russia.
Pew Research (2013): Honor killing the woman for sex outside of marriage is favored over honor killing the man in almost every Islamic country. Over half of Muslims surveyed believed that honor killings over sex were at least partially justified.
Assimilation
Muslims have highest claimed disability rates in the UK (24% of men, 21% of women)
2011: 16% of UK prisoners in 2010 are Muslim (Muslims comprise about 3% of the total population)
Pakistani Muslims in the UK are three times more likely to be unemployed than Hindus. Indian Muslims are twice as likely to be unemployed as Indian Hindus.
Policy Exchange: 1 in 4 Muslims in the UK have never heard of the Holocaust;
Only 34% of British Muslims believe the Holocaust ever happened.
Policy Exchange: 51% of British Muslims believe a woman cannot marry a non-Muslim
Only 51% believe a Muslim woman may marry without a guardian’s consent
Policy Exchange: Up to 52% of British Muslims believe a Muslim man is entitled to up to four wives
Policy Exchange: 61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished
NOP Research: 62% of British Muslims do not believe in the protection of free speech;
Only 3% adopt a “consistently pro-freedom of speech line”
ICM Poll: 58% of British Muslims believe insulting Islam should result in criminal prosecution
Pew Global (2006): Only 7% of British Muslims think of themselves as British first (81% say ‘Muslim’ rather than ‘Briton’)
Policy Exchange (2006): 31% Muslims in Britain identify more with Muslims in other countries than with non-Muslim Brits.
Die Welt (2012): 46% of Muslims in Germany hope there will eventually be more Muslims than Christians in Germany.
Ipsos MORI: Muslims are 3 times as likely as Christians to believe that their religion is the only way.
Pew Research (2011): Muslim-Americans four times more likely to say that women should not work outside the home.
Pew Research (2007): 26% of Muslim-Americans want to be distinct (43% support assimilation)
Pew Research (2011): 20% of Muslim-Americans want to be distinct (56% support assimilation)
Pew Research (2011): 49% of Muslim-Americans say they are “Muslim first” (26% American first)
Pew Research (2011): 21% of Muslim-Americans say there is a fair to great amount of support for Islamic extremism in their community.
ICM Poll: 11% of British Muslims find violence for political ends acceptable
Wenzel Strategies (2012): 58% of Muslim-Americans believe criticism of Islam or Muhammad is not protected free speech under the First Amendment.
45% believe mockers of Islam should face criminal charges (38% said they should not).
12% of Muslim-Americans believe blaspheming Islam should be punishable by death.
43% of Muslim-Americans believe people of other faiths have no right to evangelize Muslims.
32% of Muslims in America believe that Sharia should be the supreme law of the land.
Pew Research (2013): “At least half’ of Muslims surveyed believed polygamy is morally acceptable.
“Muslims in most countries surveyed say that a wife should always obey her husband.” (including 93% in Indonesia and 65% in Turkey).
Only 32% of Muslims in Indonesia say a woman should have the right to divorce her husband (22% in Egypt, 26% in Pakistan and 60% in Russia).
Well certainly in the very earliest part of the history of Christianity there was a great deal of diversity and I would argue that the notion of heresy did not even exist until well after the Christianity became state religion of the Roman empire, so you have a couple of hundred years of a liberal faith Frankly I don’t think that heresy even became an issue until the middle ages and even then it was not at all uniform through out Christendom. As I was trying to suggest some places and some times there was a a more liberal attitude to religious innovations and change than you would think.
WAR breeds TERRORISM!
To Whom It May Concern: “There are many humorous things in the world, among them the white man’s notion that he is less savage than the other savages”.—-Mark Twain. Who was the white savage who plunged Australia into the Iraqi war, a war based on white lies. Iraq a good trading partner, the Australian Wheat Board can vouch for that. For the record PM Howard was the man who plunged Australia into the Iraqi war—-as he danced in tune to American war tom-toms. Howard in my view is a war criminal, no better than a terrorist. Shalom, Richard Ryan.
Copies of above comment will be foward to Australian newspapers.