Iain Hall's SANDPIT

Home » Australian Politics » Ask not for whom the bell tolls Julia, it tolls for thee

Ask not for whom the bell tolls Julia, it tolls for thee

Ah another day and another report of Labor disunity in the face of the increasingly incompetent Gillard Government.

click for source

Really who could blame any ALP MP for thinking of their personal political salvation with Labor’s fortunes sinking by the second under Gillard’s rule?
Of course the real problem for Labor is that if they use the same knives that they dispatched Rudd with then there is a very real chance that Gillard would just resign and bring down the government anyway. Such are the woes of minority government where remaining in office relies upon a nutty coalition of self serving independents, a disgraced ex Labor man and lets not forget the verdant  religious zealotry of Adam Bandt as well. I suspect that Only Kevin Rudd is really eager to sip from the poisoned chalice and you know what?  He may even save some of the furniture but we know that the nation will not be well governed again until we do away with this government at a proper election and then Labor can spend the time it needs to find itself while it sojourns in the political  wilderness.

Cheers Comrades

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37 Comments

  1. Ray Dixon says:

    It’s a beat up put out by Gillard supporters to pre-emptively put down any move against her.

    the nation will not be well governed again until we do away with this government at a proper election

    This is where you stuff up, Iain. You automatically assume and assert that an Abbott govt would be any better, yet there’s no evidence of that. And what do you mean by a “proper election”? Was the last one invalid or something?

  2. Nigel says:

    What Ray said. Gillard is doing no better or worse than any other prime minister. She’s not great – let me make that clear – but she’s holding together a parliament on a knife-edge, thanks to her negotiation and conciliation skills. Somehow, she’s also managing to move the country forward (mostly). I’d like to see a man achieve all this and retain his grace and composure.

  3. Iain Hall says:

    Nigel
    Gillard is doing significantly worse than her predecessors by any measure that matters, frankly the job of PM is big enough that no incumbent can give it their full attention if they have to constantly negotiate for every little thing with a disparate mob of losers. Further the disunity in Labor is far from settled and that is another reason that Gillard can’t give the job her full attention so what I’m saying is that the very reasons that you find to praise Gillard are the exact reasons why Gillard is doing so badly in the lodge.

  4. Craigy says:

    “Gillard is doing significantly worse than her predecessors by any measure that matters”

    “I think this is a very timely reality check and in fact the OECD says Australia’s fundamentals continue to be strong and it’s forecasting that the economy will grow more strongly over the next two years than almost every advanced economy in the world, that’s with the exception of Mexico and South Korea. The OECD sees growth in Australia at 3.1 per cent in 2012 and 3.7 per cent next year.

    It’s also confirmed Australia’s mixture of good fortune and good management in a very troubled world with low unemployment at 4.9 per cent, contained inflation, strong public finances, read: strong banks, and a very big pipeline of business investment from China and India.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3508780.htm

    Why lie Iain? Are you so attached Tony that you can’t tell the truth, even when it’s easy to find?

    “so what I’m saying is that the very reasons that you find to praise Gillard are the exact reasons why Gillard is doing so badly in the lodge.”

    “The latest survey, conducted exclusively for The Australian over the weekend, saw Julia Gillard’s personal approval rating jump four points to 40 per cent compared to a three point slide for Mr Abbott to 37 per cent.”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/polling/negativity-caused-tony-abbotts-newspoll-slump-says-labor/story-fnc6vkbc-1226371033451

    So again you have it wrong. What do you think about Tony, should he resign? His approval rating is LESS THAN JULIA…..HE IS LESS POPULAR THAN THE WORLDS WORST PM AND MUST RESIGN! ELECTION NOW! BRING BACK TURNBULL!!……(Oh my god it’s like a virus, it’s even infecting me!….’News Limited Derangement Syndrome’.)

    Sorry you got it so wrong Iain…..

  5. Iain Hall says:

    Gillard is not the country Craigy and just because the nation is doing OK according to your first citation it does not follow that its because of anything done by this government, In fact its reasonable to suggest that the nation is doing OK inspite of Gillard.

    Why lie Iain? Are you so attached Tony that you can’t tell the truth, even when it’s easy to find?

    The truth like her endorsement of Thomson or the appointment of Slipper? Worse still the Carbon tax that we were promised would not exist which is what I was referring to in the sentence you quoted, followers of the Green faith may praise Gillard for but every one else hates her for both breaking here solemn promise and for the effect that it will have on the prices of everything.

  6. lynot says:

    I couldn’t resist, it wont see the light of day, whatever. In reply to Craigy you are indeed a wanker Hall. Damian has you sussed too doesn’t he?

  7. Craigy says:

    “followers of the Green faith may praise Gillard for but every one else hates her for both breaking here solemn promise and for the effect that it will have on the prices of everything.”

    “EVERYONE ELSE HATES HER”……But they hate Tony even more it seems……What are you blind or something?

    How can you keep attacking Gillard for being worse “by any measure that matters”, when she is ahead of Tony in the polls (so the public clearly see him as worse than Gillard) and the economy, the measure that REALLY matters, is going gang busters because, as the OECD said, we have good management.

    Do you really support Tony Abbott to be the next PM, against the wishes of most Australians? He is a man who will take us down god knows what economic path, I thought you were conservative.

    Why change when we are going gang busters, for someone who is so unpopular and has no reasonable economic policies, except those that would wreck the good work being done by Labour and the Greens?

    As for Thompson and Slipper, wake me up when this becomes a real issue. The real issue is the current success of our economy and how we lock that in and spread the wealth to all Australians. Tony Abbott is not capable of doing that on his current performance.

  8. Iain Hall says:

    There you go Lynot I let your comment through so count that as your only free shot.

  9. GD says:

    Is this the same lynot who was going to top himself if Labor didn’t win the last election?

  10. GD says:

    the good work being done by Labour and the Greens

    Hmmm… I trying to think of which of their policies have boosted our economy?

    Well, there’s the initial stimulus, that’s one…

  11. Iain Hall says:

    Yeah GD its the same fool who has been following me around for ages

  12. Iain Hall says:

    Craigy

    “EVERYONE ELSE HATES HER”……But they hate Tony even more it seems……What are you blind or something?

    More importantly NO ONE BELIEVES anything Julia says they may not be in love with Tony but more people believe him when he makes a commitment.

    How can you keep attacking Gillard for being worse “by any measure that matters”, when she is ahead of Tony in the polls (so the public clearly see him as worse than Gillard) and the economy, the measure that REALLY matters, is going gang busters because, as the OECD said, we have good management.

    Mate you are delusional to make that claim when Labor are polling badly enough to face a Queensland style wipe out at the next poll yet you cling to the one aspect of the polling that shows Julia slightly ahead?

    Do you really support Tony Abbott to be the next PM, against the wishes of most Australians? He is a man who will take us down god knows what economic path, I thought you were conservative.

    Sure I think that Tony would be a better PM and when he attains that office I expect that it will be be with the backing of a thumping majority which will put this small sample based poll well and truly in the shade.

    Why change when we are going gang busters, for someone who is so unpopular and has no reasonable economic policies, except those that would wreck the good work being done by Labour and the Greens?

    Well if we are going “gang-busters” now Just imagine how well we will go when the hated Carbon tax scheme is ditched?

    As for Thompson and Slipper, wake me up when this becomes a real issue. The real issue is the current success of our economy and how we lock that in and spread the wealth to all Australians. Tony Abbott is not capable of doing that on his current performance.

    Two words for your claim Craigy “Confirmation Bias”

  13. Ray Dixon says:

    You’re both wrong. First of all, Gillard is a hopeless PM and should be ditched. But not for Abbott who would be even more hopeless. The recent slight lift for her in the polls merely reflects the recent handouts, which were a f*cking joke and an exercise in blatant vote buying.

    Secondly, Australia’s economy only looks good because in some sectors we are booming, like mining. Farming too, believe it or not. Most other sectors are in recession. Look at all the liquidations and business closures, Craigy – heaps of people losing jobs but not yet registered as ‘unemployed’. Believe me, out here in the real world where I exist (not the fake one you live in) things are shit. Overall the best that can be said about Australia is we’re doing … just okay … better than Greece.

    But Iain, Abbott would make it worse. He’s a f*cking loose cannon. An idiot, quite frankly

    It’s a dilemma alright, but the Coaltion have no answers and no policies. I agree that Labor should defer the Carbon Tax. Maybe Rudd will make it back?

  14. alan says:

    I don’t think most are doing too badly.
    Maybe they just expect too much?
    When I was trying to get along in the world I would never buy something that I couldn’t afford.
    Only ever borrowed for a house and car and paid cash and haggled like hell for everything else.
    My first house was only about 10 squares, but it was big enough for 3 kids.

    Today they want everything, their first house is generally 4 bedrooms 2 bathrooms and far too big, with all the trappings to go into it, and that’s before they have any bloody kids.
    Then they want the biggest and best plasma tvs, pay trillions for communications stuff that should be basically luxury items.
    So now they are all up to their necks in debt and want to blame Governments for their problems.
    People need to learn to walk before they run.
    Now that I have plenty of money my kids expect me to support them and they want it all.
    I just tell them to work hard, don’t spend what you haven’t got and the rest will look after itself.

    So, Ray, I don’t think things are bad at all.
    It’s their expectations that are bad.
    And they sure bet lots of money too….luckily for me.

  15. Ray Dixon says:

    There’s uncertainty causing people to cut back on spending. Its impacts are being felt very heavily in several sectors like retail, manufacturing, tourism and building. Maybe it’s only temporary but there’s no doubt that this year the economy is very tough.

  16. GD says:

    Ray, aside from your comments about Abbott and the Coalition, which of course I can’t agree with, your comment makes a great deal of sense. In my opinion, anyway.

    I wouldn’t expect ivory tower ‘protected’ employees to have much contact with the real world.

  17. Craigy says:

    Ray, retail is being hit as more sales go on-line and off-shore. Manufacturing is likewise moving to cheaper labour off-shore. Tourism is being hit by our high dollar and building is coming back after having been overheated by the policies of both conservative parties.

    You can’t tell me with a straight face that conservative, Christian, egotist Rudd or fruit loop Abbott would have had any more luck with stopping or slowing this correction.

    It is tough for some Ray, no doubt, but with some pushing from the Greens, this government has done all it can to limit the impact of the world wide problems.

    Yes I agree that certainty and stability play a part in confidence, but between the relentless negative carping coming from the Abbott camp that is being lapped up by the Murdoch press attack dogs for their own gain, is it any wonder people think things are rotten when they clearly are not. The misapprehension that some sectors of the community have is not all just down to Gillard.

    Oh and Ray, your dig at the fact that I work in the public service is noted. I am sure I have told you before that I have had this job for 8 years. Before that I ran a successful business for many years, as well as working extensively in the private sector in a very competitive environment. I was in business through the 87 -93 ‘recession we had to have’ when we had 18% interest rates (22% for business loans) 10% unemployment and negative growth. So enough with the attacks on me by claiming I’m not living in the real world or don’t have an understanding of when it’s tough, it isn’t tough now in comparison to the last downturn.

    Comparing Australia to Greece is just laughable Ray and does nothing for your credibility.

    Iain, anyone who thinks having low unemployment, low inflation, low interest rates and 3%+ growth shows mismanagement is off their rocker. What else can a Government do but this good. Yes some are losing their jobs but with low unemployment they will not be on the scrap heap for long. We do need to spend on re-training and we can see from the actions of the Libs in Victoria that we won’t get that from them or their federal counterparts. Abbott and the Libs would be a massive step backwards for Australia.

    Your comment that “no one belives Gillard” but they belive Abbott is a joke right? Iain, she is more popular than Tony, the man who told us with a straight face that he is in the habit of saying the first thing that comes into his head even if it isn’t true.

  18. Ray Dixon says:

    I’m not having a dig at you, Craigy, or suggesting you don’t know what it’s like in the real world. I’m well aware of your past business experiences in the recession that affected everyone. I’m saying that you are now among the group not being impacted by the current selective recession in sectors that do not benefit from the otherwise overall strong position Australia is in. Sectors like those I mentioned.

    It’s too easy to put the retail slump down to the impacts of online shopping and the tourism slump down to the high dollar. There are other factors forcing people to pull their heads in and not spend. To suggest the money is going elsewhere ignores the fact that savings have increased and people are saving and paying down debt instead of buying. The fact is demand for consumer goods, holidays and a host of other things has fallen dramatically this year due chiefly, in my opinion, to uncertainty and fears created over:

    1. The European financial crisis
    2. The impending impacts of the carbon tax.

    I agree that much of the carbon tax hyseria has been built up by the Opposition and the media but that’s not the point. What else do you expect the Opposition to do, ignore it? The reality is that the carbon tax is having a negative impact on our economy even before it’s implemented and, in all likelihood, once it is implemented (after July 1) we will indeed see some pretty steep price rises (some of it opportune price gouging, no doubt) and then you watch demand fall even further.

    I’m not normally one to forecast ‘doom & gloom’ and I think the situation might correct itself eventually (in about 12 months time) but I predict the rest of this year and well into next is going to continue to see a lack of consumer confidence and a deteriorating domestic economy in those areas mentioned.

    Btw, housing has only had a lift in recent weeks due to the impending removal of the Vic State Govts’s first home buyer’s grant as young homebuilders rush to meet the deadline of June 30. This will be short lived because after June 30 the demand for new homes will slump (dramatically) again.

    Btw#2: “with some pushing from the Greens, this government has done all it can to limit the impact of the world wide problems.”

    Give me a break – are you seriously suggesting The Greens had anything to do with that at all? Give one example.

  19. Iain Hall says:

    Craigy

    Iain, anyone who thinks having low unemployment, low inflation, low interest rates and 3%+ growth shows mismanagement is off their rocker. What else can a Government do but this good. Yes some are losing their jobs but with low unemployment they will not be on the scrap heap for long. We do need to spend on re-training and we can see from the actions of the Libs in Victoria that we won’t get that from them or their federal counterparts. Abbott and the Libs would be a massive step backwards for Australia.

    Tell that someone in their fifties who has lost their and they will likely punch you out if they are not totally depressed about their prospects that is.I suspect that as you have been in a stable circumstance for some years that you have forgotten what it is like to have your entire life turned upside down because you ahve lost your livelihood. Its very seldom as easy to get a new start even when employment rates are high.

    Your comment that “no one believes Gillard” but they believe Abbott is a joke right? Iain, she is more popular than Tony, the man who told us with a straight face that he is in the habit of saying the first thing that comes into his head even if it isn’t true.

    Nup all you need to do is get out of your usual Latte sipping comfort zone and you will find the any mention of Gillard brings out derisive comments and disdain while Abbott gets grudging respect.

  20. Craigy says:

    Ray,

    One example? Supporting the stimulus……Tony Abbott would have us in a massive recession with his policies (or lack of them).

    http://greens.org.au/getthefacts/achievements

    So you think things are secure where I work? You do know I work for a TAFE/University Ray?

    Why don’t you ask, rather than assuming you know my work environment, it would stop these tedious explanations.

    The carbon tax will have very little impact, as has been well explained to those of us who listen. The ALP supported by the Greens, passed assistance measures for those industries and individuals that will be affected. Raising prices and blaming that on the carbon price system (unfairly) will get you a fine.

    I know many find it hard to believe that the carbon price will not have much impact, but I remember the GST, a much bigger tax change that clearly did not destroy the economy. I guess we wait and see if the sky falls in come July.

    Iain,

    ”Tell that someone in their fifties who has lost their and they will likely punch you out if they are not totally depressed about their prospects that is.I suspect that as you have been in a stable circumstance for some years that you have forgotten what it is like to have your entire life turned upside down because you ahve lost your livelihood. Its very seldom as easy to get a new start even when employment rates are high.”

    This makes me laugh coming from a Liberal voter. It has always been the ALP that has provided the resources to retrain people. Whenever we have a Liberal Government either in Canberra or the States, they start by removing money from the very areas that can help unemployed people over 45. Anyway, with unemployment under 5% there is only an historically small percentage of people in that situation, thanks to good management by the ALP and Greens.

    And Iain, I remind you that I do know what it’s like to have my life turned upside down, I’m sure you remember that.

  21. Ray Dixon says:

    Craigy, you claimed the Greens were partly responsible for Australia surviving the GFC by “pushing” the Govt to introduce the stimulus that got us through. But when I asked you for just one example you simply say they “supoported the stimulus” – i.e. they didn’t vote against it and allowed it to pass. That’s hardly “pushing” the government. The fact is that Rudd’s economic stimulus was entirely his idea and the Greens went along with it … and your attempts to add economic cred to your beloved Greens are a giant fail.

    As for price increases stemming form the carbon tax it will be impossible to police price hikes in areas like retail, supermarkets and even tourist accommodation. It’s not like GST where every business had to increase prices by a set 10%. In this case there are only 250 companies that the ACCC can police and they will have no jurisdiction over what the great bulk of companies do as a result of their higher costs brought on by the carbon tax. None whatsoever.

  22. Ray Dixon says:

    Oh, and just so you understand the sums Craigy, the carbon tax will raise $40 billion. That’s $40 billion (at least) that will paid for via higher prices, ie by you and me. At a time when many businesses are closing and many sectors are in a serious downturn. You can talk all you like about the compensation packages but paying less tax on less income is not compensation and there’s no way it can cover the out-of-pocket we will all experience. It’s the opposite of a stimulus.

  23. Iain Hall says:

    Craigy

    This makes me laugh coming from a Liberal voter. It has always been the ALP that has provided the resources to retrain people.

    The point is not about “retraining” Craigy because I have had my own run ins with such schemes and often they are little more than window dressing and they do little to help the workers displaced by the whims of government policy. Better to make the right decisions in the first place so that industries are not destroyed ( Carbon tax anyone)than to have trickty boo “retraining schemes” to mop up the misery.

    Whenever we have a Liberal Government either in Canberra or the States, they start by removing money from the very areas that can help unemployed people over 45. Anyway, with unemployment under 5% there is only an historically small percentage of people in that situation, thanks to good (in spite of the bad) management by the ALP and Greens.

    Fixed your sentence for you Craigy so that it is closer to the truth.

    And Iain, I remind you that I do know what it’s like to have my life turned upside down, I’m sure you remember that.

    I understand that Craigy but how long ago was that? and were you over fifty at the time and do you REALLY remember what it was like?

  24. Craigy says:

    “I understand that Craigy but how long ago was that? and were you over fifty at the time and do you REALLY remember what it was like?”

    Iain,

    I am not over 50 yet. The fires that destroyed everything I had, leaving me with a pair of shorts a tee shirt and some shoes (and an old slightly melted car) were 3 years 4 month ago, so yes I still remember……..I don’t think I’ll ever forget, but you come to terms with stuff given time. Compared to that, losing your job or struggling in business during good or bad times is just a walk in the park, having been through all these things myself.

    Ray,

    I don’t want to argue figures with you when it comes to taxes, I know you don’t like paying tax, what business does right? We will just have to agree to disagree, but if you want to put a bottle of our local wines on the line I am willing to bet that the economy starts to pick up after July (which you even admit is a good possibility) and that the carbon price and mining tax ‘damage’ will be all forgotten by the end of the year.

    You up for it? (I would like a bottle of your high country Pinot, mine will be from the Yarra Valley).

  25. Ray Dixon says:

    I am willing to bet that the economy starts to pick up after July ….. You up for it?

    No, I’m not up for a bet with you on the state of the economy Craigy because your definition of how it’s going seems out of skew. And changeable. First of all you claimed it’s going “gangbusters”, which is the very reason I chimed in to correct you. Now you propose a bet that it will “pick up”!?! See the contradiction?

    I think I’ll stick with my own instincts (and those of major economic forecasters like the chief economist of Westpac) who predict the economy outside of mining will continue to slow down for the rest of this year forcing the RBA to lower interest rates to record low levels.

  26. Craigy says:

    I don’t think I ever said that that every part of the economy is at the top of its game Ray.

    Some parts, like tourism and home building have been badly overheated and need to correct. There has been way too much investment in holiday accommodation for example, while the dollar was low.

    Anyway by any measure the overall economy is going very well compared to the rest of the world. You can’t deny that.

    Lower interest rates will be good if that’s what comes about, maybe my kids will be able to buy a house before they turn 50 if that happens.

    I don’t actually disagree with your last post Ray, you seem to have a chip on the shoulder of late, business not doing well?

    The bet was just a bit of fun, lighten up, life is good…and you would have liked our local drop….oh well.

  27. Ray Dixon says:

    Some parts, like tourism and home building have been badly overheated and need to correct. There has been way too much investment in holiday accommodation for example, while the dollar was low.

    That’s just so wrong, Craigy. It shows how aloof and out of touch you are with people who work for themselves. As do your patronising remarks about my business. I’d tell you to get stuffed but that’d be rude.

  28. GD says:

    TAFE employee lives on salary from tax payers. Businessman employs self, and other employees. They pay tax. Tax is used to pay sanctimonious TAFE employee.

    TAFE employee, while on the public teat (and clock), loses argument, re the economy, with self-employed businessman, so leaves hubristic parting remark:

    you seem to have a chip on the shoulder of late, business not doing well?

    unf*ckingbelievable 😦

  29. Richard Ryan says:

    “The working class can kiss my arse, I am a businessman at last”! now working class lackeys heads down arse up—-as GD would say unf*ckingbelievable.

  30. alan says:

    To DG, who I think from his previous post is a nasty piece of work.
    It goes well with your other nonsense.

    Those ‘sanctimonious’ TAFE employees are training the workers for your businessmen to run their businesses.
    Because said businessmen will no longer train them himself as he once used to.
    And why are said businessmen always whinging that they can’t find the skills they require, when it is basically their own fault to begin with?

  31. craigy says:

    “I’d tell you to get stuffed but that’d be rude”

    No Ray, it would be fair enough, I was winding you up.

    No insult intended though and none taken.

  32. Ray Dixon says:

    Alan & Richard, you’ve misread GD’s comment. Perhaps he worded it wrongly but in this case the “businessman” he was referring to was me, a small businessman who merely works for himself and does not employ others. And, in this case, he was right – Craigy lost the argument and spat the dummy.

  33. Ray Dixon says:

    it would be fair enough, I was winding you up.

    Shorter Craigy: “I was being personal … again.”

  34. GD says:

    Try and keep up, alan 🙂

  35. craigy says:

    Shorter Craigy: “I was being personal … again.”

    But Ray would never be personal…..EVER??

    “It shows how aloof and out of touch you are with people who work for themselves.”

    Ooops! ……must be a one off Ray……

    Gotta love your arrogance Ray, how do you get your head around, in a wheel barrow?

    “Craigy lost the argument and spat the dummy”

    Not even close Ray, I was giggling at you all the way, you’re so serious lately, whatever it is that’s bothering you.

  36. Ray Dixon says:

    That’s not worth responding to, Craigy. You’ve become rather nasty and personal lately and your comments say more about you than me.

  37. Craigy says:

    I’m just responding in kind Ray, but I’m happy to be friendly if you back off a bit.

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