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Gay Love and hate

Just how hard it must be to be a “progressive” these days?

According to the touchy feely ideology we should all be tolerant of difference and prepared to endorse diversity. This is fine until you are dealing with the intolerant at which point you have a rather hefty problem:

No poofters, we're Muslims! (click for source)

This of course raises the question of what sort of obligation do we have to tolerate the intolerant?
Its real easy to be touchy feely about those with differing world views when those views are themselves willing to be inclusive and tolerant of your own beliefs but what do you do in the case where the followers of Islam are implacably opposed to something like homosexuality?

Is it any wonder that so many lefties want to ignore the problem and put it into the “too hard” Basket?

Something to consider Comrades
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26 Comments

  1. JM says:

    Sheesh Iain, you really are a b*****r aren’t you?

    Hate laws were put in place by the very people you claim are your political opponents and yet you now accuse those same opponents of not wanting them.

    Which is it?

    Hate laws? Or “Lefty” in the corner? You can only disagree with one, not both.

  2. Iain Hall says:

    JM

    Sheesh Iain, you really are a b*****r aren’t you?

    What is the word you lack the courage to write above? You are moderated anyway so no need to be coy 😉

    Hate laws were put in place by the very people you claim are your political opponents and yet you now accuse those same opponents of not wanting them.

    That is not the point I am making here at all My point is that the left in general have a big problem with criticism of Islam even when its practitioners do things that are very worth of our disgust and disapproval

    Which is it?

    Hate laws? Or “Lefty” in the corner? You can only disagree with one, not both.

    No you can mock the former created by the latter because they are both ineffective and have lots of unintended consequences.

  3. JM says:

    Iain: You are moderated anyway so no need to be coy

    Yeah, I think that’s because you’re frightened and are using the moderation time to think up answers.

    No you can mock the former ….

    But you’re not mocking the former Iain. You’re insisting on full application of the former while imagining that “Lefty” disapproves of the full application of the law.

    Now while your cardboard cutout might be squirming – it is after all, your toy so you can do what you like with it – no-one else is.

  4. GD says:

    You certainly can mock the lefties for their hypocrisy when it comes to Islam. Christians and whites are vilified for the slightest opinion against certain minorities, but Muslims are given free reign to express their hate beliefs, all in the name of their religion and multi-culturalism.

  5. Iain Hall says:

    No JM you are moderated because you refused to consistently “play nice” with the others here that you disagree with. Having you in moderation is actaully a nuisance to me but it will persist until I can be sure that you will behave well.

    But don’t for a minute try to claim that you are moderated because I am either frightened or because I need time to respond. You are wrong on both counts.

    But you’re not mocking the former Iain. You’re insisting on full application of the former while imagining that “Lefty” disapproves of the full application of the law.

    No JM I’m pointing out the cognitive dissonance that comes when their ideology has to confront the reality of Islamic bigotry.

  6. JM says:

    Iain: you are moderated because you refused to consistently “play nice” with the others here that you disagree with

    Iain you moderated me because I refused to put up with abuse from “Sax”. I’ve played nice with many people, including “Sax” for a long time. And then when you moderated me it was only for being “off topic”, ie responding to a stream of abusive and insulting comments from one of your regular commentators.

    You have deleted exactly one of my comments for that offence. I haven’t complained about it.

    And I have “played nice” ever since. And stayed on topic.

  7. Iain Hall says:

    JM
    If you continue to play nice then I will take you out of moderation
    OK?

  8. Jeremy says:

    I’m going to comment here for once because it looks like Iain, for all his lefty-watching, still imagines something completely untrue: that we have any problem criticising muslims when they deserve it.

    Homophobia is bad and should be opposed whether the person advocating discrimination is a Christian, a Muslim, or an intellectually lazy or cowardly big party politician.

    I’m not sure where your imagined acceptance of intolerance by muslims comes from. Is it because when advocating for equality for gays and lesbians most of the time we’re arguing with Christians? That’s just because they’re the most powerful lobby opposing equality in this country. If we were having this debate in Iran, we’d be damning the Ayatollah (although possibly from the other side of the border). Is it because we object to casual racism and discrimination against muslims when there’s no grounds for it other than simple religious bigotry? Well, of course – we believe in a person’s right to practice their religion freely AS LONG AS IT IS NOT IMPOSED ON SOMEONE ELSE.

    I don’t know any lefties who would find the situation you allude to here any sort of “dilemma” or problem. And I suspect you don’t either (although I’m sure if you hunted you could find a few cranks on the internet).

    Advocating for tolerance does not require “tolerating” the “intolerant” at all.

    And… commence missing my point entirely.

  9. Ray Dixon says:

    Homophobia is bad and should be opposed whether the person advocating discrimination is a Christian, a Muslim, or an intellectually lazy or cowardly big party politician.

    That’s a reference to Kevin Rudd’s ‘failure’ (in your eyes) to tell Malaysia off over their anti-sodomy laws, I take it, Jeremy? It’s not his or the government’s role to tell Malaysia they should repeal those laws – and if he did, what do you think they’d say? What reaction would he get? It was only 20 or so years ago that sodomy was illegal in some States in Australia too so maybe just give Malaysia time to catch up.

  10. Iain Hall says:

    Jeremy

    I’m going to comment here for once because it looks like Iain, for all his lefty-watching, still imagines something completely untrue: that we have any problem criticising Muslims when they deserve it.

    The problem clearly exists not so much that you lefties never criticise Muslims or the tenets of Islam but that you have a very high tipping point for doing so, the reaction the Danish Cartoons violence is a good example of that where I recall a number of lefties making excuses for the rioters. But mainly I think the left’s reaction to murderous Islamic homo-hatredhas been mainly to look the other way

    Homophobia is bad and should be opposed whether the person advocating discrimination is a Christian, a Muslim, or an intellectually lazy or cowardly big party politician.

    Sure I can agree with that

    I’m not sure where your imagined acceptance of intolerance by muslims comes from.

    I would not characterise it so much as “acceptance” as much as I would describe it as a sort of wilfil blindness to the issue.

    Is it because when advocating for equality for gays and lesbians most of the time we’re arguing with Christians?
    That’s just because they’re the most powerful lobby opposing equality in this country.

    This is not about the issue of Gay marriage Jeremy its about a religious ideology that wants to kill every homosexual, frankly that is a far more serious issue when it comes to the social acceptability of homosexuality than Gay marriage. There was an Item on Radio National the other day where this dance director was talking about a survey of 500 Muslims found that 100% of them thought that homosexuals deserve to be killed.

    If we were having this debate in Iran, we’d be damning the Ayatollah (although possibly from the other side of the border). Is it because we object to casual racism and discrimination against Muslims when there’s no grounds for it other than simple religious bigotry?

    Hmm I think that you are kidding yourself here my learned friend, when every any conservative is making legitimate criticisms of any aspect of Islam and the way that it is practised there is almost a mad rush from various lefties to insist that the criticism is all about racism and bigotry. I would just love to see lefties leading the outrage when we have the next sheik Hilalli type misogynistic out burst but I won’t hold may breath on that one.

    Well, of course – we believe in a person’s right to practice their religion freely AS LONG AS IT IS NOT IMPOSED ON SOMEONE ELSE.

    Yeah that is fine in principle but what do you do when that faith has practices that oppress members of that faith community? things like forced marriage or honour killing or the ill treatment of homosexuals?

    I don’t know any lefties who would find the situation you allude to here any sort of “dilemma” or problem. And I suspect you don’t either (although I’m sure if you hunted you could find a few cranks on the internet).

    When you are as heavily invested in the idea that any conservative,like yours truly, only criticises Islam and its followers from the most base motives it becomes pretty tricky to then turn around and criticise Islam yourself without having to defend yourself against a charge of hypocrisy or to expend a great deal of time trying to re-establish your “multicultural cred”. frankly I think that this is why so many on the left look the other way on this issue.

    Advocating for tolerance does not require “tolerating” the “intolerant” at all.

    A fine sentiment Jeremy

    And… commence missing my point entirely.

    Your point is that you disagree with may contention that the left gives Muslims the benefit of a blind eye to their intolerance of homosexuality. Is that a fair summation of your position?

  11. JM says:

    Iain: you lefties never criticise Muslims …. any conservative,like yours truly, only criticises Islam

    Iain, I think you have a quite severe defect in your political thinking, namely that your view of the world is Manichean – ie. you see things in dark and light terms, left and right or “leftie or conservative”

    It seems beyond you that anyone could actually have more complex and nuanced views and therefore you try to force-fit everyone into your preconceived stereotypes.

    Hence your recent demand that I “prove” that I’m not a “lefty”. A quite ridiculous request as the only proof that you would possibly accept is that I agree with “enough” of your opinions and disagree with “enough” of “leftist ideology” to satisfy you.

    Don’t argue, that’s what you asked me to do – that I disagree with “enough” of your stereotypical “Mr Lefty” view of what the “left” (whoever the hell they are) universally and unanimously hold true (in your opinion) that you could be satisfied that I am not a “leftist”

    Just to state the proposition is to make clear how ridiculous it is.

    To be clear, I hold a variety of opinions, some of which are widely regarded as “of the left”, others of which are widely regarded “of the right”. My “leftist” opinions are usually about social issues, my “rightist” opinions are often of economic and institutional matters where I would characterise myself as conservative.

    I don’t fit into your two boxes in other words. And neither do most people.

    IMHO if you could get away from this dualist world view you’d have more productive debates with people. I’d advise you to try, because after all you do claim on the front page of this blog to “enjoy a good argument”.

    And just to make this point clearer:-

    a.) I don’t always agree with your bete noir Jeremy Sear

    b.) I have actually met Jeremy (although he doesn’t know it) and find him to be a quite pleasant young fellow who – on my observation – will make a pretty tough and good barrister one day (he’s not too bad right now in fact)

  12. Iain Hall says:

    JM

    Iain, I think you have a quite severe defect in your political thinking, namely that your view of the world is Manichean – ie. you see things in dark and light terms, left and right or “leftie or conservative”

    It seems beyond you that anyone could actually have more complex and nuanced views and therefore you try to force-fit everyone into your preconceived stereotypes.

    No JM you confuse my shtick and my polemic with my understanding of the world and of politics, I am not trying to force fit anyone into any sort of stereotypes but will I admit to sometimes using a rather board brush in describing individuals and their personal ideologies its not meant to be entirely reductive or definitive its just a rhetorical style delivered with my tongue often firmly in cheek.

    Hence your recent demand that I “prove” that I’m not a “lefty”. A quite ridiculous request as the only proof that you would possibly accept is that I agree with “enough” of your opinions and disagree with “enough” of “leftist ideology” to satisfy you.
    Don’t argue, that’s what you asked me to do – that I disagree with “enough” of your stereotypical “Mr Lefty” view of what the “left” (whoever the hell they are) universally and unanimously hold true (in your opinion) that you could be satisfied that I am not a “leftist”

    Just to state the proposition is to make clear how ridiculous it is.

    Look I did the political compass and It turns out that I am to the left of the Greens! You can do the test and see how we compare Now I want to stress that this is just a bit of fun and I do appreciate that we are all to a greater or lesser degree a pastiche of different views on different issues.

    To be clear, I hold a variety of opinions, some of which are widely regarded as “of the left”, others of which are widely regarded “of the right”. My “leftist” opinions are usually about social issues, my “rightist” opinions are often of economic and institutional matters where I would characterise myself as conservative.

    Snap!!

    I don’t fit into your two boxes in other words. And neither do most people.

    You are the one imagining me having dualism world view that I don’t in fact have JM.

    IMHO if you could get away from this dualism world view you’d have more productive debates with people. I’d advise you to try, because after all you do claim on the front page of this blog to “enjoy a good argument”.

    I have never had such a view JM as you should realise from the range and breadth of the topics that I put up here at the sandpit (and taht I have fellow authors here with quite different politics.

    And just to make this point clearer:-

    a.) I don’t always agree with your bete noir Jeremy Sear

    b.) I have actually met Jeremy (although he doesn’t know it) and find him to be a quite pleasant young fellow who – on my observation – will make a pretty tough and good barrister one day (he’s not too bad right now in fact)

    I agree that he is tenacious enough to succeed at the bar but that can also be a disadvantage when he is wrong about things he argues for.

  13. The Optimist says:

    Iain, you have a point, but only to a point. The Left is not homogenous and some of us are perfectly willing to stand up to hate and intolerance in all its forms, whoever it em emanates from.

    I have recently started a new blog to defend the authentic Left against relativistic, pseudo-Leftism, much in the manner of the Euston Left which has been around for years.

    Read my blog and/or the Euston Manifesto and do not be so quick to condemn the Left en masse.

  14. JM says:

    Iain: political compass

    So you’re pretty much at one with the Greens then? They’re the closest party to your test results.

    So can we expect fewer disparaging comments from you regarding them?

    its just a rhetorical style delivered with my tongue often firmly in cheek.

    Iain, if you’re saying the “Iain Hall” as presented on this site is a parody then I’d have to say two things:

    1. You’ve excelled yourself in your imitation of a certain type of political commentator

    2. You need comedy lessons, because parodies are supposed to be funny, perhaps you should try exaggeration – I believe it has a certain comedic effect. But then you’re the drama graduate so I guess you knew that already.

  15. GD says:

    Jeremy hedges his bets with:

    If we were having this debate in Iran, we’d be damning the Ayatollah…

    That’s such a cop-out. All right minded people oppose the unjust ideologies of Middle Eastern Islamic society. However, the left won’t criticise Islamic radicals within Australia, as it undermines their whole argument for ‘multi-culturalism’.

    Iain, you covered the points, I’m just chiming in and snarking at these hypocrites.

  16. Iain Hall says:

    Optimist
    Firstly welcome to the Sandpit. Now if you take a moment to scan the sidebar of may blog you will see that I link to Nick Cohen, who I describe as “The good lefty” I read his book and loved it because he seems to be getting right to the problem with the modern left. likewise I have read the Euston Manifesto and I appreciate the sentiments that it contains. I can respect any lefty who lives up to its ideals and they will seldom be the target of criticism form me. I will check out your blog soon.
    JM
    You are mistaken If you think that I offer a parody here at the Sandpit I do admit that I have developed a particular style here that includes a great deal of sarcasm and gentle mockery of certain ideologies and I get the biggest hoot imaginable when the sanctimonious take everything I say with the utmost seriousness.
    As for the going easier on the Greens, well haven’t you heard the meme that we are always harder on those we are closest too? Ask any member of the ALP who they deliver the most venom to and I bet that you will find that its to members of their own party …

  17. Iain Hall says:

    Yes it is almost an after thought from our learned friend isn’t it GD?

    I do take the time to read a lot of lefty sites and they just don’t dare criticise Islam or they are very disparaging of those who do To give Jeremy some credit he has occasionally been critical of some aspects of Islam but that criticism is no where near as strident as his criticism of Christianity which is the point isn’t it? If you are a militant atheist like our learned friend then doesn’t that oblige you to be equally disparaging of all belief in the supernatural?

  18. The Optimist says:

    Thanks Iain, yes I did notice your link to Nick Cohen and to OrwellWeb and I appreciate them both.

    Sadly it was a tad undercut by your description of the awful James Dellingpole as ‘a wise head on young shoulders’. His utter failure to put forward an intelligent argument to Sir Paul Nurse, only to go on and complain that he had been ‘intellectually raped’ was a particular low point.

  19. Iain Hall says:

    Well Mr O I am a man with broad tastes who has a diverse reading menu, I like James because of his position on AGW that I tend to agree with did see the vision of the incident that you refer to and James certainly was caught on the back foot. none the less anyone who fights the good fight against the Warministas gets my respect.

  20. JM says:

    Iain: You are mistaken If you think that I offer a parody here at the Sandpit

    What does “tongue in cheek” mean then, if not parody?

  21. Iain Hall says:

    JM

    What does “tongue in cheek” mean then, if not parody?

    It means that I am often sarcastic nothing more and nothing less

  22. JM says:

    “Iain” you can’t do sarcasm. Parody yes, but badly. Sarcasm no.

  23. Iain Hall says:

    Now you are being rather boring JM because most readers here get and appreciate my shtick and I am mortally wounded that you don’t 🙄
    You can’t do friendly debate BTW and why pray tell are you putting may name in inverted commas?

  24. JM says:

    “Iain”: why pray tell are you putting may name in inverted commas?

    You mean you don’t know?

  25. Iain Hall says:

    JM I don’t know why you are doing it which is why I ask 🙄
    GD
    You make a good point with your citation GD the Jihadists commit real atrocities and minions of the Left like JM are indifferent yet if some marines commit a minor indiscretion and they go ballistic with indignation.

  26. JM says:

    “Iain”: I don’t know why you are doing it [putting your name in inverted commas] which is why I ask

    Ok, “Iain” for the slow. Because you are a parody. Of a certain type of “conservative” commentator.

    Now that I’ve worked out your “tongue in cheek” strategy – sorry I was a bit stupid there, I admit you actually had to tell me before I caught on – I’m just going along with it.

    Not too hard hey?

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