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Concurrent vs consecutive sentencing

With this post I intend to note the way that the California court has dealt with a truly despicable criminal so  this particular scum-bag will never know freedom again. Likewise the wife who helped him will spend the rest of her life behind bars .

click for source

The point of this  is to share the fact that in this jurisdiction they don’t seem to do concurrent sentencing, and the result is as you see above, now if a judge had thought like that in Melbourne then maybe justice would have actually been seen done for those seven women ….
Cheers Comrades

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43 Comments

  1. Sax says:

    Thank you Iain !
    Maybe now cried hards like Ray can see the difference ?

  2. Iain Hall says:

    Ray has his heart in the right place as far as I can see Sax except that he tends to be just a bit too keen on the idea that you should be wary of criticising Islam and Muslims .

  3. Sax says:

    Look, I agree that one has to be careful of the tag, racial vilification , and I agree with Ray there, whole heartedly in that regard. But, religion should not even enter into the debate, both here, as well as in the previous article. As for Muslum bashing, hell, I even attempted to show, that in the case of that religion, the sentence would have been even more severe than western courts, at least until I saw the above ? Hardly muslum bashing ?

    The above case would have the desired effect of sending a strong message, to those that would partake in this behaviour. As the old expression goes, and it may be a bit corny, but worthy of a repeat here ? We need to reclaim our streets !

    This case sends a powerful message. Probably will fall on deaf ears, as those that partake in this behaviour are pretty ‘sick’ and won’t heed the message anyway ?

  4. Iain Hall says:

    Personally I think that this man’s crimes really deserve a capital sanction, but in the absence of that being on the agenda this is the best possible result that we can expect from the courts.

  5. Sax says:

    He wouldn’t learn anything then would he ? Although, ‘it’ is probably beyond any sort of rehabilitation, after all that time anyway. Just make certain you put the cretin some where, so he can’t hurt anyone else.

    Admittedly, the kidnap for eighteen years would have been probably the mitigating factor in the above case, (as can be shown by the wife’s sentence ?), but it just goes to show the way differing societies deal with this issue. It pretty much comes down to the value we place on our liberty, and our rights doesn’t it ?

  6. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain, you are projecting here. How do you know the bloke from Libya received concurrent sentences? It doesn’t read that way to me. You’ve made an assumption in one post (by ommision) and compounded your error by projection in this post. Sheez!

    However, if you can find the facts and they support your view that the Libyan received some kind of deal, then I will gladly concede you and ‘Angry Sax’ are right (sort of).

    Btw, I have no predisposition towards treating muslims any differently under our laws. You guys are O-T-T on this one, for sure.

  7. Sax says:

    You obviously don’t have a daughter Ray ?
    😉

  8. Legal Eagle says:

    FWIW, sentencing judges in Australia do have a choice between concurrent and cumulative sentences. It’s a matter of judicial discretion.

    If you actually have to sit through a case (rather than read a potted and probably incorrect version of it in a newspaper) and if you actually have to make the decision for someone to go to gaol, it’s quite a different thing. I can tell you this from experience, having clerked in sentence appeals, but it’s not just anecdotal. Studies have shown that the more information people are given about the circumstances of a crime, the less punitive they become. If they are just given a newspaper style article, they tend to be punitive; but if they have to sit through a full trial or are given detailed information about the circumstances, they are less punitive, and the sentences they hand down are actually very similar to the sentences judges hand down.

    All I’m saying is…be careful about jumping to conclusions from newspaper articles about legal cases. They often skew it in a particular direction so as to sensationalise it, or get it wrong.

  9. Sax says:

    Sorry mate, I respect your opinion, but I can’t get past the fact that there were seven counts ! Not one, but seven ? This hardly is a sentence that satisfies a communites expectation in such a case, at least in my mind ?
    Hardly a deterrent is it ?

  10. Angel says:

    I understand the media needs readers/viewers but in the groper case why would we need to know his excuses for the crimes. He assaulted women and a child. I don’t need to know he was feeling overwhelmed and aroused being in this country and his representation’s use of this as justification. I don’t see there is any excuse but that’s just the way we pamper society today. Personal responsibility is a thing of the past.

  11. Ray Dixon says:

    LE has just told you how it works, although we are still none the wiser of the facts in this case. Yet you two carry on like the sky is falling. Take a chill pill- the 5 years plus sentence will more than deter this bloke from doing this again. Well, to start with, he won’t be staying here on release, that would seem certain.

    SAX, I have a daughter. She has cancer. Shut up.

  12. Angel says:

    Ray – Sax was generallising, he was not to know that. I sincerely wish her all the best as I am sure the rest would too.

  13. Sax says:

    Then you should be outraged at the leniency of the sentence.
    Cancer notwithstanding.

  14. Legal Eagle says:

    First, Ray, I’m really sorry to hear about your daughter.

    Deterrence is not the only consideration behind sentencing. It is certainly an important one, in my opinion. But we just don’t know what else is going on here. It may be in this case that the judge got it wrong (it happens). However, I simply don’t know enough to answer!

    To make a fair call on this, we would need to know the precise nature of the assaults, and what kind of sentences had been handed down for assaults of a similar nature (is this equivalent or not?). I should also point out sexual assaults can range from anything from touching someone without their consent on the buttocks to something almost approaching rape. One of the things judges must do is to ascertain whether certain kinds of assault are more blameworthy than others. I recall a Queensland Court of Appeal case from last year or the year before which decided that digital rape was less bad than penile rape, for example, because there was no possibility of STDs or pregnancy in female victims as a result of the former, and reduced the sentence of the rapist in that case. This is the kind of horrible judgment criminal law requires judges to make.

    In any case, the OPP can appeal against any sentences which are manifestly inadequate; our legal system has means of dealing with sentences which are too low. Perhaps they will do so in that particular case.

    When I clerked for appeals against sentence, there was one particular judge who used to grin mirthlessly when an undeserving perpetrator attempted to get his or her sentence reduced, and say, “You do know I have discretion to increase your sentence, don’t you?” You’ve never seen people get out of the court room and back into gaol so fast…

    And yes, for the record, I have a daughter too, and if some guy sexually assaulted her, I would want to kill him, but that’s the reason why we get an independent third party to judge the perpetrator – so that we don’t just have some kind of eye-for-an-eye system of justice where personal vengeance is paramount. One of the reasons I don’t generally touch criminal law is because I don’t deal well with this kind of stuff, and find it abhorrent.

  15. Sax says:

    Certainly LE, you are correct. Along with the deterrence, there is also a punitive portion of punishment. Communities expectations of the system, over the last ten or so years, have been really woken up. We are tired of excuses for lenient sentences/judgements for criminal activity.

    As you say, certainly, there are many varying levels of assault, I agree. But, seven counts, some of which are pretty serious, (including rape ?), tells me, that this judgement fulfills neither of communities expectations, of either punitive or deterrence does it ?

    Also certainly, the media is quick to hype up this sort of case, to get the desired community anger effect. In that, it looks as like it has succeeded. But, even after calming down for a couple of days, I can’t see anything that would allow for such leniency in these cases. We have to protect our kids, at any cost. The message that the courts are sending, in what has been reported (to be fair, just in case the media got it wrong, which wouldn’t be surprising ?), is the wrong one, and can only create nasty side effects, such as vigilantism and the like. That is definitely the way we don’t want to go ?

  16. Angel says:

    Its not only protecting our kids, it should be showing the other juveniles also that crime won’t pay, and not to make a career out of it. Slap on the wrists are not working.

  17. Sax says:

    Agreed. It is a tight rope to walk though. The under aged offenders, when they get caught, know they will only get a slap on the wrist, and on the other side of the coin, the justice system does not want to punish these kids, by placing them in an adult system, that does nothing but corrupt them further, and even subject them to abuse that makes the punishment worse, than the crime committed ?

  18. Ray Dixon says:

    LE has said exactly what I’ve said – we don’t know the precise details of the case .. and you lot are jumping to conclusions.

    Btw Sax, I am not “outraged” about the sentence because, so far, there is nothing to suggest it was in any way lenient. And I just don’t get “outraged” about the way our courts dispense justice anyway, unlike hotheads like, um, you. I’m glad they have that job and not me … and especially not you.

  19. Sax says:

    Hmm. Now there is an unemotive, informed reply if I ever saw one.

    Ah, perhaps you haven’t noticed Ray, but this is Iain’s Blog. He places matters for discussion on this blog. Got the bloody message yet ?
    You want to continue to make this personal, fine, write me an email. If too gutless, then do us all a favour, and climb back under the rock you slithered out of. Not everything on these pages is about you. Get over it !

    To counteract your entire argument in one sentence, do a google for the prison sentence for rape per count as well as assault. Keep in mind this creep had seven counts of both. Those are the facts of the case, regardless of how the media hyped it up.

    No wonder our girls are terrified when trying to walk home at night, and no wonder they don’t report such instances, as they know they will be put through hell on a witness stand, and for what, this result ?

    Perhaps, before you partake in your next “spray” Ray, as a father, you should sit
    and consider the above ?
    Does anyone think, that after this creep is parolled, probably in three years, that he will be mysteriously reformed, and won’t, upon exit from prison, go out and do the same thing all over again ?
    Please, a little common sense is all that is required here ?

  20. Angel says:

    Ray also makes the assumption that he will not be our problem once released. All he needs to do is show possible persecution if returned to his proper country, or any other lies, and the bleeding heart government currently in power will grant asylum. This is likely to be more so than the last we will see of him.

  21. Sax says:

    I agree Angel.
    Again, if it had been a “brain f*rt”, for want of a better term, i.e. a single count, then maybe I would show some leniency, but I can’t get past the facts of this case. That is, seven counts. That tells, even my admittedly limited legally trained mind, that this guy is an habitual offender. It also makes me consider, hell, he only got prosecuted with seven counts. We all have heard how the system works. How may other instances are there, out there, that they didn’t get him on ?

  22. Ray Dixon says:

    Sax, you’re carrying on like a child, mate. What personal remarks have I made about you? Plenty of insulting ones coming from you about me though. Geezus mate, go back to bed – it’s just a difference of opinion.

    Angel – this guy has got no hope of staying in Australia when released. I know that’s my “assumption” but I reckon it’s a monty. Remember the English bloke who came out here as a child but was then deported 40 years later because he’d commited some similar type of crime?

  23. Sax says:

    unlike hotheads like, um, you. I’m glad they have that job and not me … and especially not you.
    SAX, I have a daughter. She has cancer. Shut up.
    Geezus mate, go back to bed – it’s just a difference of opinion

    Et tu Brute ? Geez Ray you have no idea do you ?

  24. Ray Dixon says:

    Sorry Sax. I’m truly sorry for making those brutal ‘personal attacks’ on you. I hope you can forgive me and get over whatever the hell is wrong with you. Cheers.

  25. Sax says:

    ffs Ray, get back on your meds will you ?

  26. Ray Dixon says:

    Sax, what did you have for breakfast today? Whatever it was I think someone might have put a bit of ‘Kronic’ in it.

  27. Angel says:

    “”.. this guy has got no hope of staying in Australia when released..”

    Isn’t this the same very assumption we all made regarding the Villawood arsonists.

    No faith in assuming this government will do the right thing anymore here Ray.

  28. Ray Dixon says:

    No it’s not. He’s not a refugee and was only here on a student visa. He’ll be deported for sure.

  29. Sax says:

    I think you are partially right Angel. I think also, what should be considered, is the fact that there is an election between then and now ? I think the decision not to appeal the sentence, maybe politically driven. After all, recent arrivals, and migrants, historically, generally vote for the political party that let them in the country. They can always appeal the sentence at a later date, depending on the public outcry, and lay of the land at the time of that next election.
    Its all a numbers game these days I think. It has nothing to do with the right or wrong thing, just public perception. Sadly for the victim, and their families, it becomes a life sentence, not like this creep ?

  30. Angel says:

    And the ones that come here on a student or travel or work visa never overstay and then claim assylum. Look at the unrest in Libya, it’s not like he was from Hawaii Still not convinced Ray.

    Sax, if it’s a numbers game then eventually we will be screwed.

  31. Sax says:

    if it’s a numbers game then eventually we will be screwed

    Can’t argue with you about that Angel. What goes around, eventually comes around ?

  32. Angel says:

    Iain – Another recent example for you. Though not sexual offence related, this still goes to show the courts are way too lenient with multiple offences.

    A TOWNSVILLE magistrate has accused a young offender of turning his victims into prisoners in their own homes, making them too scared to leave their homes unlocked.
    Arnold Speechley, 20, appeared before Magistrate Peter Smid yesterday, pleading guilty to nine charges, including burglary, trespass and drug possession, for offences occurring between January 25 and May 5.
    Mr Smid gave Speechley 15 months probation and ordered he complete 80 hours of community service.
    http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/05/21/232981_crimebusters.html

    Nine charges / Nil jail time

    Community service will probably be mowing the lawns of the elderly (future victims to stake out) Ray, put your hand up, he can come mow your backyard.

  33. Ray Dixon says:

    I’m not an advocate of community service orders, Angel. Try Jeremy Sear. You’ve got rather way off track here – both of you. I don’t give a stuff anymore. You two are just – well, dare I say? – rather judgemental and full of it. See ya.

  34. Sax says:

    Straight back at ya Ray.
    Why don’t you wander off and let the Grups play.
    Yawn !

  35. Sax says:

    You again, have no argument from me Angel. There has been a cry from the community, for the last few years, about lenient sentences, as well as early releases. The only thing that develops, is the lefties cry foul, and begin loudly protesting, that it’s all too hard, and the pollies, too scared of the possible egg on their faces, back off. It’s a shame really. I think if they stood up for what the community demands here, they would make more friends than enemies.

    Community orders are fine, for juvies, but I think after 18, they are pretty much of a gift. It sends the wrong message, that the offender takes with them, on their next binge, knowing in the back of their minds, that the punishment will probably be the same again. That is the mindset that we have to change here.
    The present system is not working, has not for years. Time the tossers in the big houses around this country woke up to that fact, and made a few changes. Hell, you never know, they may gain a few thousand votes in the process, and also a little respect from a crime weary community ?

  36. Angel says:

    I take it Ray doesn’t need his lawns mowed then !!!

  37. Sax says:

    St Kilda must have lost ?

  38. Angel says:

    Yeah Collingwood flogged them. Didn’t they Ray.

  39. Angel says:

    In case Ray missed the results

    Collingwood 2.4 6.5 11.9 16.12 (108)
    St Kilda 2.1 5.3 6.7 7.9 (51)

  40. Sax says:

    Oh man, it’s going to be a tough week ?

  41. Ray Dixon says:

    This is like watching play school.

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