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“Nigger” not offensive in Queensland

NOT a member of the cafe, chardonnay and socialist set.

The use of the word “nigger” in Queensland has been given the official thumbs up after a magistrate ruled it was “not offensive to a reasonable person”.

And its making big news in the The Gold Coast Bulletin:

Magistrate Michael O’Driscoll made the ruling yesterday when he dismissed a case against a Gold Coast retiree charged with sending an offensive facsimile to a local politician.

A staff member working for Broadwater MP Peta-Kaye Croft complained to police after receiving the document from 62-year-old Denis Mulheron of Labrador on June 30 last year.

Christie Turner, 28, told Southport Magistrates Court she was deeply offended when she read the one-page fax which called on the Labor Party to tighten immigration laws against ‘niggers’ and ‘sandnigger terrorists’ and Muslim women with circumcised genitals.

The fax also made reference to indigenous Australians as ‘Abos’.

Mr Mulheron told the court he believed he was using ‘everyday English’ in the fax. He said he had grown up with the slang terms for Arabs and black Africans and did not believe they were offensive.

“I’m not a member of the cafe, chardonnay and socialist set … to me that is everyday language,” he said.

He argued in court the slang terms were no different to calling a New Zealander a ‘Kiwi’ or an American a ‘Yank’.

Which makes me ask the question, “where is this cafe, chardonnay & socialist set?”

Obviously it’s not on the Gold Coast. No latte sippers there. No commies, that’s for sure. No wine either. So where are these miscreants, these namby-pamby nancy boys who get all in a tizz at the mere mention of the words “nigger, abo, towelhead and even … poofter”?

Why in Melbourne of course – just ask the Herald Sun.

This is how they reported the same news down here in Melbourne:

Magistrate rules ‘n—-r’ not offensive to a reasonable person

Christie Turner, 28, told Southport Magistrates Court she was deeply offended when she read the one-page fax which called on the Labor Party to tighten immigration laws against “n—-rs” and “sandn—-r terrorists” and Muslim women with circumcised genitals.

So there you have it. Melbourne is the official cafe, chardonnay & socialist capital.

We don’t say “nigger” down here!


72 Comments

  1. Trevor2 says:

    Remember the fracas over the Nigger Brown stadium? Nigger Head beach on the NSW North Coast had to be renamed. They even tried to get Kraft banned from using Coon Cheese. Ah PC, what a wonderful world.

  2. Trevor2 says:

    Oh, I just thought of another one, there was a guy that had to change the name of his dog from Nigger when dark skinned neighbours took offence at him calling it to come get its dinner.

  3. Indi Warrior says:

    it’s just reinforced why I prefer to live in Victoria and Denis lives in Labrador…some people just never grow up really.

  4. Iain Hall says:

    Actually i think that the way that my fellow Queenslanders resist the evil of “political correctness” is something to be lauded.

  5. Ray Dixon says:

    I don’t think using derogatory, racist terms is something to be lauded, Iain. The magistrate only ruled that the wording of a private fax to an MP cannot be regarded as sufficiently offensive to warrant criminal behaviour.

    So it’s just a matter of context.

    Pity he couched his finding in terms that many will now take to mean it’s okay to go around using terms like nigger in public and in everyday conversation and interactions.

    Good to see the Herald Sun at least had the decency to censor the words out. Actually, I’m quite surprised they did but I think it suggests that even a somewhat right wing publication like the HS realises that the term IS offensive to most decent people.

  6. Trevor2 says:

    Gees Ray don’t you read the articles first. He didn’t rule it as only when its contained in a fax to an MP, the ruling was; a magistrate ruled it was ”not offensive to a reasonable person”. In fact I cannot find your BOLD TYPE reference anywhere in the above article or in the report in the GC Bulletin. Maybe the Victorian rags added something of their own, wouldn’t surprise me.

  7. Iain Hall says:


    Ray its all about context and no word that can be spoken is innately bad as you seem to want to suggets


  8. Ray Dixon says:

    Trevor, read the GC Bulletin report again. You must have missed this part:

    Mr Mulheron was charged with using a carriage service, namely a fax machine, to menace, harass or offend — a offence which carries a maximum penalty of three years jail.

    After lengthy consideration, Mr O’Driscoll ruled that Mr Mulheron’s words were not enough to invoke criminal sanctions.

    “The words used were crude, unattractive and direct but were not offensive to a reasonable person,” he said.

    But he made it clear the court in no way condoned Mr Mulheron’s comments.

    He invited Mr Mulheron to seek legal advice before using the terms in a public forum again.

    He only ruled the words were “not offensive to a reasonable person” in terms of the Act relating to the transmission of a fax to a private person. Unfortunately, to those with blinkers on, he worded it in a way that could be construed to be more general.

    Anyway, so you reckon throwing terms like “nigger” around is okay, do you? Figures.

  9. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain, let’s get it straight. I think it’s offensive to use “nigger” as a description of people when it’s done in a way intended to cause offence. Yes, there are *some* contexts where it’s not meant to offend, but not many. Its use in general conversation is unneccesary and (usually) designed to offend. No need to put those videos up to make your point.

  10. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    I put those videos up to show that much of the “offence” is utter bullshit when the term is in regular use by urban blacks in the The USA we don’t l live in the deep south just after the civil war , not even in the deep south in the time of the civil rights movement we live now and as I saw in George Gittoes recent film “Rampage” the term Nigga is used so commonly these days that any offence that is taken is just utterly contrived.

  11. Craigy says:

    Yeah, good on Denis for speaking his mind, what a champion for Queensland and a slap in the face for the PC crowd.

    Now Iain, I hear Noel Pearson will be in your part of the world next week and I look forward to you catching up with him with the greeting ‘hey ya big ABO how are you and your NIGGER mates goin’, I sure he will be very glad to see you.

    And I’m sure we could get a plane ticket for Denis to come down to Dandenong in Victoria and walk up to some of our Australians with an African background and try ‘ Giddy Nigger welcome to our wonderful monoculture, I look forward to your assimilation!’

    I’m sure no one would be offended, only the PC crowd and they should be put up against a wall and shot so who cares about them….. hey!

    Thank the magical friend in the sky for Queenslanders and their push to ‘Move Australia Forward’ (from 1950 to 1955) well done Denis.

  12. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain – it’s about CONTEXT & INTENT. Craigy is right. You are wrong, in my opinion.

  13. Iain Hall says:

    Craigy
    I have the greatest respect for Noel Pearson and personally I would never call any one anything that they would be uncomfortable with my point is entirely about some people being over sensitive about a word that is in very common usage by the very people who claim offence.
    Racism is never about the words as much as it is about hatred.

  14. SockPuppet says:

    I think the point is Denis was only saying “nigger” in a fax to one person and that the judge reckons that doesn’t offend the reader because its not about the reader. But I agree it sounds like the judge is saying its not offensive full stop and I think that might lead to some miscontraceptions now.

  15. Craigy says:

    Oh and while your at it Iain, why don’t you FAX or email the ‘ABO’S’ at Yarrabah near Cairns and let them know how happy you are that, as Queenslanders, they no longer need to be offended when they are called ‘Coon’s’ or ‘Abo’s’ or ‘Nigger’s’, I’m sure they would be on your side. As you said, these words are no longer offensive in Queensland.

    Here is their email for you, why don’t you post there response.

    yarrabahcc@c130.aone.net.au

    I’m sure they will be so happy……

  16. Ray Dixon says:

    It’s not only “hatred” that makes it racist, Iain. A lot of racist terms are used as mockery and a way of putting certain people down and just making them feel less worthy. You can’t justify using “nigger” in the vernacular just because some black people use it when talking about themselves. Their intent is entirely different. If a polio victim refers to himself as a gimp that does not give you license to do the same about all people like him.

  17. Ray Dixon says:

    Send the email address to Denis, Craigy. Then he’d find out!

  18. Trevor2 says:

    I read it again, I still cannot see you’re bold type quote in there anywhere. African American’s don’t find the term nigger offensive unless its used by someone outside their race. Doesn’t that make them racist then, discriminating against whities like that? After all Nigger and Negro are just evolution of the word Niger (that’s a Latin adjective meaning black by the way)

  19. Ray Dixon says:

    “I still cannot see you’re bold type quote in there anywhere”

    Then may I suggest … OPSM?

    Look, Trevor, here is my “bold type quote” in its context:

    The magistrate only ruled that the wording of a private fax to an MP cannot be regarded as sufficiently offensive to warrant criminal behaviour.

    And here is the piece from the Bulletin that I quoted to you above:

    Mr Mulheron was charged with using a carriage service, namely a fax machine, to menace, harass or offend — a offence which carries a maximum penalty of three years jail.

    After lengthy consideration, Mr O’Driscoll ruled that Mr Mulheron’s words were not enough to invoke criminal sanctions.

    Still can’t see it? Hint: He sent the fax (a private fax) to an MP. That’s in the Bulletin report too. Do try harder.

  20. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    Thank you for conceding that the key here is intent , perhaps we are arguing at cross purposes here because being a gentleman I don’t abuse anyone.
    Craigy

    People can take offence at anything they please but that is not the core of the issue here, Just as homosexuals decided to re claim the term “queer” and give it a positive intonation so its clear to me that urban blacks are reclaiming the term “Nigga” as well. I suspect that its a similar story for indigenous Australians as well that they re reclaiming the very terms that you think will be offensive. I will suggest that eventually they will have to live with and accept those words just was the English, have to accept being called Poms, by the Aussies, sasanacks by the Scots or that the Irish have to accept being called called Micks…
    The reality is that some people are very quick to condemn the words without considering the more important intentions

  21. Craigy says:

    Um……Trevor2, I think it has something to do with this……

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States.

    Why are you being so wilfully ignorant? You’re not a friend of John Ray are you?

  22. Craigy says:

    Iain, the answer to your point is the same as my response to Trevor2.

    I think the treatment of Indigenous Australians and the racism they still endure means the taunts have much more meaning, same goes for Africans.

    I don’t think ‘Pom’s’ have endured the same treatment as others and so the words are not as offensive to most English born. It is often a term of endearment.

    Taunting the ruling class is not cruel in the same way as kicking someone when their down.

    Also, ‘Pom’ doesn’t convey a meaning like ‘Nigger’ that became offensive due to slavery.

  23. Iain Hall says:

    Craigy
    You obviously don’t have the experience of being a Pom here in the early sixties

  24. Iain Hall says:

    Craigy

    Iain, the answer to your point is the same as my response to Trevor2.

    Do you mean your patronising link to wiki?

    I think the treatment of Indigenous Australians and the racism they still endure means the taunts have much more meaning, same goes for Africans.

    I don’t buy that at all.
    Racism is bad and both of the communities you nominate can be and often are just as riven with the vice of racism and any “white ” community.

    I don’t think ‘Pom’s’ have endured the same treatment as others and so the words are not as offensive to most English born. It is often a term of endearment.

    I’m not trying to compete in victimology here Craigy, I am just trying to reinforce my point about intent

    Taunting the ruling class is not cruel in the same way as kicking someone when their down.

    Save me from the Marxist petrifaction if you don’t mind, I take the definition of racism seriously and if someone is vilified because of their ethnicity it makes no difference to me if they are a member of the “ruling class” or if they are the lowest shit shoveller the offence in equal in its nastiness.

    Also, ‘Pom’ doesn’t convey a meaning like ‘Nigger’ that became offensive due to slavery.

    That is silly Craigy, racism towards “the other” is as old as humanity and it is not something that can only be exhibited by “white” people as you seem to be suggesting.

  25. Ray Dixon says:

    Thanks for replying to, Trevor, Craigy. I couldn’t have said it better. Those sort of comparisons (i.e. that it’s somehow racism by blacks to object to being referred to as “niggers” by whites) is appalling, twisted logic.

    Iain, NO English immigrant has suffered the disdadvantages, economic & health problems endured by aborigines due solely to who they are. You may have been taunted and you may have been bashed for being a “Pom” and that’s not good. But please don’t insult our indigenous people by likening that in any way to the treatment dished out to aborigines.

  26. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain, from what you’ve just written above in response to Craigy, I think you have only a shallow definition of racism. You don’t seem to understand (or care) that racism is more than an “intent” to hurt people of a certain race. It’s about reinforcing stereotypes and keeping disadvantaged minorities in their place.

    It is NOT racist, therefore, to call a New Zealander a Kiwi, or to call an English immigrant a “dirty Pom”. It is insulting but it is not the real intent to keep that person in a disadvantaged position – because being a Pom or Kiwi is not a disadvantage, whereas being an aborigine is.

    That’s why we should not allow terms like “abo”, “nigger” & “coon” to enter our vernacular. Not until true equality has been achieved – then it won’t matter because it won’t offend or do any harm.

    Just like “wogs” no longer keeps Italians “in their place”, one day “abos” may have no impact either. But we are not there yet and to use those words is just plain arrogant, racist & wrong.

  27. Iain Hall says:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

    rac·ism
       
    /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
    –noun
    1.
    a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
    2.
    a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
    3.
    hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
    Use racism in a Sentence
    See images of racism
    Search racism on the Web
    Origin:
    1865–70; < F racisme. See race2 , -ism

    —Related forms
    racist, noun, adjective
    an·ti·ra·cism, noun
    an·ti·ra·cist, noun, adjective
    Dictionary.com Unabridged
    Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.
    Cite This Source
    |
    Link To racism
    Explore the Visual Thesaurus »
    Related Words for : racism
    racial discrimination, racialism
    View more related words »

    Definition of racism
    All About Definition of racism Definition of racism in One Site!
    Peeplo.com/Top_Results
    World English Dictionary
    racism or racialism (ˈreɪsɪzəm, ˈreɪʃəˌlɪzəm) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

    — n
    1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others
    2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief

    racialism or racialism

    — n

    'racist or racialism

    — n , — adj

    'racialist or racialism

    — n , — adj

    Collins English Dictionary – Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
    2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
    Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
    Cite This Source
    Word Origin & History

    racism
    1936; see racist.
    Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
    Cite This Source
    Cultural Dictionary

    racism definition

    The belief that some races are inherently superior (physically, intellectually, or culturally) to others and therefore have a right to dominate them. In the United States, racism, particularly by whites against blacks, has created profound racial tension and conflict in virtually all aspects of American society. Until the breakthroughs achieved by the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s, white domination over blacks was institutionalized and supported in all branches and levels of government, by denying blacks their civil rights and opportunities to participate in political, economic, and social communities.

  28. Ray Dixon says:

    Yes, Iain. That is racism. And I think your comments have not demonstrated a real appreciation for what it means. You have made light of the “nigger” references and attempted to say it’s alright to use that term because they do.

  29. SockPuppet says:

    My ground breaking post has brought out some good debate on niggers, sandniggers, abos and racism.

    I do not use those terms here at BlueGums because Mustafa from site 87 & Warapundi from site 125 would bash the shit out of me.

    I only meant to point out the difference between redneck Gold Coast and commie Melbourne papers. But it looks like I pricked some nerves.

    All in a good days fun.

  30. Iain Hall says:


    Ray

    And I think your comments have not demonstrated a real appreciation for what it means.

    You seem to be labouring under the mistaken idea that racism is a one way street and that members of the dominate culture should be forever guilt riven for the sins of the distant and not so distant past.

    You have made light of the “nigger” references and attempted to say it’s affright to use that term because they do.

    My point is that there is a large measure of hypocrisy for anyone to take offence at a word that is used commonly by those within their own community.

  31. Ray Dixon says:

    No Iain, not “forever”. And your use of the term “dominant culture” just reinforces what I’m saying.

    As for your second point, we’ve covered that – it is not hypocritical for a disabled person to take offence at being called a “gimp” by a non-diasbled person regardless of what he calls others so inflicted. Same goes for disenfranchised blacks being called “niggers”. Don’t you get it?

  32. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    No Iain, not “forever”. And your use of the term “dominant culture” just reinforces what I’m saying.

    So you are saying that feeling guilt is required then are you?

    As for your second point, we’ve covered that – it is not hypocritical for a disabled person to take offence at being called a “gimp” by a non-diasbled person regardless of what he calls others so inflicted. Same goes for disenfranchised blacks being called “niggers”. Don’t you get it?

    Well I don’t think that you have made your case on this point at all.

  33. Trevor2 says:

    Being one eighth Torres Straight Islander, I can call my kin anything I like. But then I’m also one eighth Irish, a big chunk of Scot and another big chunk of Welsh plus a couple of pommies along the way. Sometimes I think there might be some Chinese from the days our family were in the Goldfields in Victoria too but I haven’t uncovered that yet if it is. Since we all have the Africa gene as well I guess I’m part Negro as well. Bet all you have a bunch of races in your family tree too. People can call me anything they like, I grew up when it wasn’t a nanny state and sticks and stones would break my bones but names would never hurt me.

  34. Ray Dixon says:

    That’s an unbelievable piece of self-serving nonsense, Trevor. Were you bought up as an aborigine? If so, you’d know what racism is about?

  35. Iain Hall says:

    I think that Trevor has a point Ray that and once again you seem to be suggesting that you have to be an aborigine (or black) to experience racism

  36. Ray Dixon says:

    No, Iain. You have to be a clearly defined and recognisable minority race – that suffers discrimination and real disadvantage due to your race -in order to suffer racism in this country. You don’t qualify and somehow I doubt Trevor does either.

  37. Trevor2 says:

    What a tosser, you have no idea of my upbringing or how my family was treated in the community. And racism doesn’t have to come from some majority population as it is rife even from tribe to tribe amongst the aboriginal race. Try living in Kempsey in NSW where being from the wrong tribe will get you bashed if you happen to go down the wrong street alone. One of the elders was murdered in broad daylight because he got one of the new government houses when others thought their tribe should have had priority.

  38. Ray Dixon says:

    Of course I have “no idea” of your upbringing, Trevor. How could I? You are an anonymous contributor and can make out your background to suit your clearly xenophobic arguments. Which I suggest is exactly what you’re doing. Prove me wrong – go on!!! Look, everything you’ve said in this post (scroll back to the top) suggests there is NO WAY you have suffered racial abuse. Your attempt to about-face here lacks all credibility.

  39. Sax says:

    He has more credibility than your good self Mr Dixon.

  40. Ray Dixon says:

    What sort of stupid comment is that? Trevor has said using words like “nigger” and “coon” is acceptable. For fck’s sake, Sax, was there any point to your comment other than to have another unnecessary dig? No. I didn’t think so.

  41. Sax says:

    Ffs Ray, don’t think, your not geared up for it.

    What about the generational wars between tribes mentioned above Ray.
    Hadfields and Mc Coys ?
    Campbells and Mac Donalds ? etc
    Families warring over supposed superiority of their neighbours, based on self glorification of their own stature, and place within their respective societies.

    These, even from the same country or region, were based on race, religion et al.
    As Iain and Trevor2 say, you don’t have to be black to suffer racial abuse.
    You only have to present yourself as being superior, in any way, and you are discriminating against those others around you. Hmm, that sounds pretty familiar.

    There are a million examples out there.
    Depends on how “politically correct” you want to be, and how much you want to push the envelope, before you get your lights punched out, and/or told to mind your own business.

  42. Ray Dixon says:

    For God’s sake, Sax, you are so far out the window it’s hardly worth responding to you.

    This is about Australians using terms like “nigger” & “abo” to describe black people, aborigines and others marginalised in this society. You’re waffling on about something not remotely connected to real racism. Get a grip. Do you have anything at all to say about the term “nigger”? Do you use it? To whom, and where?

    Btw, Trevor hasn’t answered that either.

  43. Sax says:

    You are talking about racism aren’t you ?
    So you think, that skin colour was the sole basis for this type of discrimination ?

    Again, you are showing just how narrow minded you are. You think racism is just about skin colour ?
    What about ethnicity in general
    Religion
    even family name, as mentioned above.
    Nigger is old hat. Not a term I would use, nor anything else for that matter. Over my few careers, I have dealt with people of all colours, creeds, religions et al. Everyone, regardless of whatever, have valid points of view, and to dismiss any due to racism is not only short sighted, but dangerous.

    I am not the one who needs to get a grip Tarzan ?

  44. Indi Warrior says:

    meanwhile the coalition broadband proposal will be useful for people in Queensland only given that its still 1980 by the sound of some of the above posts.

    next subject Iain please, this one was a ripper!

  45. Indi Warrior says:

    oh and big breath in Ray…….blow out……..feeling better?
    don’t fall into the trap we need you super sharp for the 21st.

  46. Ray Dixon says:

    Well done, Sax, for going so far off the topic you’re on to something else altogether.

    Re-read the post – it’s about calling black people “niggers” (and “abos”). You seem to be saying (like Iain) that white people in Australia suffer the same kind of racism that our aborigines do. What a joke.

  47. Craigy says:

    Well said Ray. Not hard to get the point. I wonder what motivates people to use a comparison between White Europeans and an Australian Aboriginal or African America when arguing that terms of racial abuse are justified and trying to avoid them being used is just being a nanny or PC.

    For those who don’t understand that an African American using the term ‘Nigger’ to refer to themselves is one way of reducing or removing the stigma attached to the abusive words, I guess nuance isn’t your strong suit.

    Since Italian and Greek Australians started calling themselves ‘wogs’ (think ‘wogs out of work’) the term has lost its impact as a term of abuse. Same goes for the English calling themselves ‘Poms’. It may have been offensive in the1950s or 60s Iain, but very few if any people are offended by these terms when used in common language today.

    Ray is right, given what indigenous Australians have had to endure (and still do) we have a long way to go before the terms ‘Coon’ or ‘Abo’ are not seen by them as deeply offensive.

    When you still have the likes of John Ray and other racists trying to push the line that people with black skin are of lesser intelligence and more likely to commit crime because of their genetic make up, we still have a long way to go.

    I would point out that Iain linked to John Ray’s site for many years and still links to racist hate sites like KG, MK and Tizona. That these sites and the people that run them are still acceptable to regular bloggers is one of the reasons why racial taunts are still offensive.

    Len is correct that when we live in a society free from racism then these terms will have little impact as abuse.

  48. Sax says:

    Re-read the post – it’s about calling black people “niggers” (and “abos”). You seem to be saying (like Iain) that white people in Australia suffer the same kind of racism that our aborigines do. What a joke.

    And you don’t think that racism doesn’t swing both ways ? Shame on you Ray, even I gave you more intelligence than to come up with something so illogical than that.
    A few reverse slurs for you.
    “Redneck”, “Hillbilly”, “Slaker”, “Cracker”, “Honkey”, “Whitey”, “Gringo”, “Sage”, “Blanco”, “White bread”, “Wonder bread”, “Wood”, “woodie”, “Nazi”, “Clan man”, “Ghost”, “Trailer park”, “White trash”
    Certainly, the majority american, but applicable none the less.
    White people in Australia do suffer reverse discrimination. For the poorer amongst us, try walking into Centrelink, one white, and the other Aboriginal, under the same circumstances, and watch who comes out with what an hour later.

    If you are saying reverse discrimination doesn’t happen, you have your head up your ar*se.

  49. Ray Dixon says:

    Oh good one, Sax. You’ve just shown that you have the same shallow definition of racism that I referred to earlier.

    Sure, those slurs you quote are taunts on white people. So what? If you or I are racially abused with such names what is the impact? Well, it would not be “nice”, I grant you that, but:

    Would it affect my self esteem? No.
    Would it make me feel that aborigines are sterotyping me as a loser? No.
    Would it reinforce my insecurities caused by my upbringing in a disadvantaged community like the ones aborigines endure? No.
    Would it “put me in my place” i.e. at a disadvantage in society? No.
    Would it make me angry & resentful? Momentarily but not for long.
    Would it have any real impact on my future? No.

    You see, Sax, when you call an aborigine a “nigger, coon or abo” you reinforce to them that, in the eyes of the white majority, they are inferior and can never be our equals, in any walk of life.

    You just don’t get it, do you? It’s people with attitudes like yours that are keeping aborigines “in their place” as the most disadvantaged people in Australia.

  50. Sax says:

    Again, you go off on some tangent, that is totally poles apart from the one being discussed ?

    My ‘spray’ was designed only to show, that reverse discrimination, is just as rife in society. Yours ? Who knows ? Just typically uneducated, attempts in point scoring from Mr Dixon again. Again, you fail, miserably !

    For example, present two people to Centrelink. Equal in every respect, other than a white person, and a black person. See what benefits each get ? Bet those dollars to donuts, the black person comes out with more benefits than the white person.

    I do get it Ray, you’re the one who doesn’t get it as usual ?

    My point was/is, that discrimination, name calling, derogatory comments are rife in race to race relations, not just black white, white black, yellow with blue polka dots. In so far as the remainder of your slanderous bulls*it rhetoric, again you are making it personal, and illogical.

    Discrimination, in any form is unacceptable. BUT, saying that, a couple of expressions come to mind ?
    What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander ?
    That’s the pot calling the kettle black ?
    Gender based, race based, religion based slurs et al, have been rife in society ever since Adam was a baby ffs.

    We start playing the “blame game”, or “finger pointing” as you are doing above, nothing gets solved, and the problem festers until we have another Sydney ?

    Is that what you want ?

  51. Craigy says:

    Sax or Len or whoever. You are just not reading what Ray and I are writing.

    Yes name calling happens amongst many groups of people, in some cases it is deeply offensive and is a form of abuse and in other cases it is not….GET IT.

    It depends on who is being called a name and why. I am not offended by being called ‘whitey’ in this country. I would only be offended at being called a ‘redneck’ if I was one, but that has nothing to do with my race and more to do with my attitude.

    And, providing extra help to a group of people in society who are disadvantaged is NOT racism. Your view that it is racist for some Australians, with a demonstrated need of extra help, to get that help, is strange indeed.

  52. Sax says:

    I am saying Craigy, that racism, in all forms, occurs in all sections of the population. To only point to one facet of a multicultural society, and take that stance, is illogical.
    To prove my point, try moving to Arnhem Land for example. If you’re white, forget it, won’t happen, unless you bring to the table, something that the society needs. Usually investment, whether it be money, or a business etc that immediately benefits or fills that community’s needs.
    Like to know whereabouts in Australia that can happen, without you being called a racist ?

    In so far as the rest of both your arguments, I don’t get where you are both coming from. If you are calling me a racist, well, that has been tried before, and failed. I am saying that the playing field should be level FOR ALL RACES.
    In some cases, the discrimination is reversed. That is not only anecdotal evidence, but fact ? That’s my point.

  53. Sax says:

    It depends on who is being called a name and why.

    So that makes it acceptable then ?

  54. Ray Dixon says:

    Sax/Len, would you mind not calling me “uneducated” and lacing your posts with insults? It’s hard enough to get to the point of what you’re saying without wading through all YOUR name-calling (not that it affects me deeply!).

    Yeah, the centrelink example. Look, I frigin’ hope the aborignal kid gets shown some preferential treatment there because he probably has less hope of getting a job.

    Bloody hell, Sax/Len, you really don’t get it, do you? Name-calling & insults (you know, the stuff you engage in here) have no impact on me whatsoever. Why? Well that’s because I have a reasonable amount of self esteem. Unfortunately though, our aborigines have not had the same advantages that you and I have enjoyed and calling them names really affects them.

    Give them a friggin’ break will you and stop making out that you or I have any idea how hard it is for aborigines in this white-dominated society. Wake up.

  55. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    Yeah, the centre-link example. Look, I frigin’ hope the aboriginal kid gets shown some preferential treatment there because he probably has less hope of getting a job.

    The facts of the matter are that centre-link has nothing to do with helping any claimant get a job so everyone visiting an office should be treated the same and no one should be given preferential treatment bast upon their ethnicity. In all fairness it should be a case of first in line gets seen first and that everyone is treated with equal care and respect.

    Give them a friggin’ break will you and stop making out that you or I have any idea how hard it is for aborigines in this white-dominated society. Wake up.

    I have been hearing the same song for all of my adult life Ray and frankly there comes a point beyond which we should begin to expect that individuals should do something for themselves and that we should stop offering them any deference as “noble victims” as the left are so keen to do.
    I am all for helping those in need regardless of their background , they a may be deserving because they are poor or downtrodden but I won’t ever come at the argument that being black, blue, brindle or green with yellow stripes should make a blind bit of difference to how deserving they are.

  56. Ray Dixon says:

    Well I have to admit, Iain, that I’ve never been inside a centrelink office and I’m not familiar exactly with how they operate. But anyway, your point applies equally to negate what Sax* said about aborigines getting preferential treatment in there.

    *Typo fixed by request 🙂

  57. Sax says:

    Oh Ray, again you wound me with your gutter insults. Woe is me.

    Well I have to admit, Iain, that I’ve never been inside a centrelink office

    Well, there’s an admission for you.
    Sort of proves my point about talking from an uninformed position doesn’t it ?

    Sex ?
    How old did you say you were Ray ?
    Anyway, schools nearly finished Ray, time to get off the school’s computer, and go home to mummy and daddy.

  58. Sax says:

    Seeing that your getting personal again ?

    Well that’s because I have a reasonable amount of self esteem.

    more like a narcissistic complex you mean ?

  59. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    Don’t you remember that during the Howard years that they privatised the “CES” and out sourced all employment services to companies like the one that made Rudd’s Mrs rather rich?

  60. Sax says:

    I am all for helping those in need regardless of their background , they a may be deserving because they are poor or downtrodden but I won’t ever come at the argument that being black, blue, brindle or green with yellow stripes should make a blind bit of difference to how deserving they are.

    Thank you Iain, the point I have been trying to prove all along.

  61. Ray Dixon says:

    Yes, Iain, but Sax was talking about welfare cheques. I guess they still do that?

    Sax, um, where I have been personal to you here? I can see where you have made personal insults about me (“uneducated” “uninformed” “using the school computer” “go home to mummy & daddy” “narcissistic complex”, etc) but I can’t see where I’ve reciprocated. Oh well, if you think it helps you to raise YOUR self esteem, go for it – it’ll just reflect on you, not me.

    Iain, you’ve added to your comment, I see. To reply:

    “there comes a point beyond which we should begin to expect that individuals should do something for themselves and that we should stop offering them any deference as “noble victims” as the left are so keen to do.”

    Yes, there DOES come a point (hopefully) when aborigines will not need our special help. But we haven’t reached that point yet because they do not yet have equality of opportunity or environment. We have to try harder to reach that and when we do, well you can go to town on them all you like and it won’t matter. Nor will it be necessary.

  62. Craigy says:

    I will leave this argument Iain.

    Once you start repeating Bolt talking points about ‘noble victims’ and all that clap trap it is clear you have no idea about indigenous disadvantage and why racism is still a problem in this country. While you stick to your ill-informed opinion on Australia, there is no point arguing the point with you.

    Sorry mate but been there done that.

  63. Sax says:

    BUT that is not always the case is it ?
    There are government schemes in place, that specifically are pointed towards the supposed downtrodden aboriginals for example, that being white you have no hope of getting assistance from, no matter how poor or downtrodden you are. Relocation schemes, education assistance, isolation payments, health programs, training programs etc. That is the sort or reverse discrimination I am talking about. This society should be on an equal footing for everybody, that is disadvantaged, regardless of skin colour, religion, race etc.
    Surely not too difficult for a multi cultural, forward thinking society such as ours ?
    Not happening though is it ?

  64. Ray Dixon says:

    Sax, it’s not “reverse discrimination”.

    Those programs have evolved from BOTH sides of politics and are not engineered by any political agenda. They’re humanitarian, needs based programs. There are also programs to help all races. I see kids around here getting some pretty special treatment and facilities too – and they are not living in near 3rd world conditions and have decent homes and schools to attend. To resent the specific (and seemingly unequal) programs developed for aborigines is just plain mean-spirited.

    Anyway, like Craigy, I’ve had enough of this too. If you don’t get it by now, you never will.

  65. Sax says:

    It’s not mean spirited but fact.
    There is reverse discrimination out there, and it is not being racist bringing the inequalities to light. If you were just as financially, or other wise disadvantaged, wouldn’t you want/expect, to be able to receive the same help ?

  66. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    Yes, there DOES come a point (hopefully) when aborigines will not need our special help. But we haven’t reached that point yet because they do not yet have equality of opportunity or environment. We have to try harder to reach that and when we do, well you can go to town on them all you like and it won’t matter. Nor will it be necessary.

    What are the bench marks for this point in your opinion?
    and why do you think that its is we that have to continue to do the hard yards?
    When should be expect personal initiative responsibilty and drive to kick in ?

  67. Ray Dixon says:

    Okay, one last reply and then I’m just giving up on you both:

    Sax: it is not the aborigines providing these programs, it is the established “ruling & dominant white society” (for want of a better description) that has decided to help out our clearly disadvantaged indigenous people in order to help them get to a level playing field. They do not get “special privileges” as you are trying to imply because they are born into lower privileges in the first place. And yes, if I fell on hard times I would get help too. Why single these poor people out when plenty of others are receiving assistance?

    Iain: The bench marks are several including standard of housing, health, education and job opportunities. I agree with Pearson-style self-help programs but that too is all part of the special assistance they need. They’re not there yet, not by a long shot, and that’s why we have to still do the “hard yards” (although all it requires from you and I is respect and patience for the work being done – not much to ask is it?).

    Over & out.

  68. Sax says:

    Finally for me as well. You can’t tell somebody, who doesn’t want to know.

    They do not get “special privileges” as you are trying to imply because they are born into lower privileges in the first place

    That is, again, where you are wrong. They do/have/will get preferential treatment, now and in the future. You know why ? You are a classic example. The governments of the day, don’t want to be branded as racists. The lower economic portions of our community have one thing in common. They have banded together, to form enormously successful pressure groups. They have not always achieved their aims, but they are still extremely formidable, in their approach to governments.

    Can you imagine, if young home owners for example, pooled their talents in a similar manner, to form a similar pressure group ? Can you imagine how much of a better deal they would get, from government/banks, re interest rates and other concessions under such circumstances ?

  69. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    Iain: The bench marks are several including standard of housing, health, education and job opportunities.
    I agree with Pearson-style self-help programs but that too is all part of the special assistance they need.

    🙄
    I am constantly amazed that there is still an expectation from you lefties who seem to think that we have to make employment opportunities for indigenous people who want to live in places where there is no economic reason for them to be there. Because the lack of an economic purpose for most communities is the core of the problem here (much more than any concerns about racism ) There are education opportunities if the people are willing to take them up.

    They’re not there yet, not by a long shot, and that’s why we have to still do the “hard yards” (although all it requires from you and I is respect and patience for the work being done – not much to ask is it?).

    That seems like a bit of cop out, we have gone beyond having to see and treat indigenous people as victims ray and the time has come to expect a bit of effort from them to send their kids to school and to encourage them to seek work where it exits rather than expecting pointless make work schemes. (and this is precisely what Noel Pearson has been saying for ages) But I would be curious to know if you would support indigenous people being required to move to seek work as the Gillard Government is proposing for everyone else who is long term unemployed?

  70. Ray Dixon says:

    Can you imagine, if young home owners for example, pooled their talents in a similar manner, to form a similar pressure group ?

    They already GET ASSISTANCE, Sax. And they didn’t have to “pool their talents” to do so. Neither did Aborigines – it was done for them … by caring Australians.

    I honestly don’t know why I bother to respond to this rubbish. I’ll try not to in future.

  71. Sax says:

    Rubbish ?
    You don’t think that the ‘ripping off’, of our young kids, trying to buy a house is worthy of concern ? Wow, I am impressed. That’s cold man, real cold !

    Two matters Ray.

    Obviously you haven’t seen the set up in Arnhem Land ? White people, other than tourists, aren’t allowed anywhere near the place, nor do they have any say, as to how the place is run. It is an absolute credit to them. They were given the land, and to their absolute credit, have formed a society to be proud of. It is a pity we don’t hear much about it.

    The whole place is run by Aboriginal elders. Very strict, and with an iron fist. We have never heard about it publicly, but having seen it first hand, an achievement for the Aboriginal Council, that they should be extremely proud of. Elders have power to close the pubs with the click of a finger, when trouble hits, and they also have the power to allocate resources how they see fit. I continually get blown away as to how successful it is. Pity we couldn’t use the same set up in the trouble areas of our main cities. Would solve so many problems.

    If your talking about the meagre government grants, peanuts. I am talking collective bargaining power. Can you imagine the power of say, perhaps ten thousand home seekers, grouping together, going to a bank, and demanding a better deal on interest rates, fees etc ? That would knock our powerful banks down a few rungs, and the deals by their opposition, would be coming thick and fast.

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