Iain Hall's SANDPIT

Home » Popular Culture » AFL » Queensland have beaten them four seasons in a row and the chances are that tonight will see that become five in a row.

Queensland have beaten them four seasons in a row and the chances are that tonight will see that become five in a row.

'They can whinge all they want', says Maroons centre Greg Inglis, defiant over his choice to play for Queensland in State of Origin.

For most of my fellow Queenslanders, and their counterparts in New South Wales the only thing that matters today is that the next “State of origin” Game is on tonight Heck the big news story yesterday was that “shock!! Horror!!!!” the NSW coach made some rather thuggish and hurtful racist remarks, to be entirely honest why should we expect meat headed sports people to be politically correct “nice” people? They are good at only one thing and that is chasing a bit of pig skin up and down a grassy field and trying to bring each other to the ground. It is surely too much to expect that they be paragons of political virtue as well. Now I know that My southern friends will get all high and mighty about the clear superiority of the four post game but spare a thought for the mountain that those bedraggled wearers of the blue jersey have to get over. Queensland have beaten them four seasons in a row and the chances are that tonight will see that become five in a row. Now that puts enormous pressure on a coach to get some face saving results and he may have tried to push some of the buttons that his players have been trying to hide just to get that little bit of effort out of them and he may have just forgotten that everything is public these days.

Personally I cringe when ever I hear someone make a racist remark but I am a realist who understands that people often  speak before they think about what they are saying  and that sometimes  the reaction to those badly chosen words  far exceeds the speakers  actual feelings about race and the differences between people. To the politically correct it is a mortal sin to even think there are different “races” but then those same PC enthusiasts will laugh at “blond jokes”  which as a fair haired person I find offensive. The point is human beings will always find some difference to deride in their  competitive opponents and if such things are offensive to some people is that really such a big deal???

Anyway Go the Maroons Comrades


62 Comments

  1. Ray Dixon says:

    if such things are offensive to some people is that really such a big deal???

    “Coon”, “Abbo”, “nigger” and “monkey” – yes, that’s a big deal.

  2. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    I would suggest that context and intent are just as significant as the actual words.

    For instance I were to offer you a Coon sandwich would that be offensive?
    Or would it be just a cheese sarnie?

  3. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain, the opening paragraphs of the article you link to clearly explain the context:

    THE racism scandal enveloping Andrew Johns has deepened with the disgraced NSW assistant coach accused of using several offensive racist slurs including “coon”, “Abbo”, “nigger” and “monkey” at a boozy Blues bonding session last week.

    The comments, which prompted NSW winger Timana Tahu to walk out on the Origin camp, were revealed yesterday by Sol Bellear – an NRL Indigenous Council board member – who said he had spoken to senior members of Tahu’s family.

    “It was all the usual things: ‘you black “c. . .”, Abbo, coon, nigger, monkey’ – they were were all used,” Bellear said. “It wasn’t just directed at (Israel) Folau and GI (Greg Inglis), it was at (Sam) Thaiday and JT (Johnathan Thurston).”

  4. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    In MY piece I am speaking about generalities rather than the specifics of this individual instance of thuggish stupidity, I personally am more concerned that he used the word “cunt” as a term of derision yet every one goes on about the “racism” As I suggest in my piece there is a lot of derision out there why should any of it be seen as more “evil” than any other part of it?

  5. Ray Dixon says:

    I personally am more concerned that he used the word “cunt” as a term of derision

    That word can be used on all races, Iain. But referring to a black person as a ““Coon”, “Abbo”, “nigger”, “monkey” or “black c*nt” insults their whole ancestry. And it’s indicative of a racist attitude.

  6. Iain Hall says:

    But my point is that it derides all women (even though some are prone to use it in the same way)
    So are you saying misogyny is of lesser consequence than racism?
    Further is it racist to call some one a Pommy?
    and finally what about the same sort of taunts from the offended players calling some people “White Cunts*”?

    * as blog owner my comments using such words does not trip the moderation filter 😉

  7. Ray Dixon says:

    You’re muddying the waters, Iain; Johns didn’t direct his remark to a woman. Yes, he might also be a misogynist and, if so, that’s just as bad. But it’s a different issue.

    This is about racial vilification in sport – especially in rugby – and to dismiss Johns’ comments as inconsequential and “not a big deal” is to condone them.

    Is it racist to call someone a Pommy? Well, plainly not. No more racist than it is to call someone an Aussie, a Skippy or an Ocker.

    And I’m not aware of any offended players calling others “white c*nts” but if they did then on the surface it could also be said to be racism.

    But get real, the history of racism is that it has been whites who have discriminated against blacks and the reason we want racist language to disappear is it reinforces those old stereotypes.

    To explain: If a black person called me a “white c*nt” it would have no impact on me because, as a white person, I have not endured the same prejudices that blacks have.

  8. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    You’re muddying the waters, Iain; Johns didn’t direct his remark to a woman. Yes, he might also be a misogynist and, if so, that’s just as bad. But it’s a different issue.

    Well I think that he obviously wanted to suggest that the object of his scorn was
    A. bad because he was black (which is racism)
    B. Bad because he is a womans Genitals (which is sexism)

    This is about racial vilification in sport – especially in rugby – and to dismiss Johns’ comments as inconsequential and “not a big deal” is to condone them.

    I would contend that any vilification is unnecessary in a sporting contest FULL STOP and as I say in my piece its a bit much to expect that meat heads would really know better. Call me old fashioned but I would have thought that good sportsman ship demands that you respect the opposition and not call them names.

    Is it racist to call someone a Pommy? Well, plainly not. No more racist than it is to call someone an Aussie, a Skippy or an Ocker.

    I wound say all of those epithets can be racist in the right contexts Ray, they just have to be delivered with disdain rather than affection.

    And I’m not aware of any offended players calling others “white c*nts” but if they did then on the surface it could also be said to be racism.

    You not being aware of something does not mean that it does not happen Ray

    But get real, the history of racism is that it has been whites who have discriminated against blacks and the reason we want racist language to disappear is it reinforces those old stereotypes.

    No I won’t buy that I’m a strict definition man when it comes to racism and that definition requires that you express hatred or derision of another person based on their race there is no way that I can accept your notion that it is something that is done only by “whites” to “blacks”

    To explain: If a black person called me a “white c*nt” it would have no impact on me because, as a white person, I have not endured the same prejudices that blacks have.

    If the person calling you a “white cunt” was black and doing so just because of the colour of your skin I bet that you would not be happy about it.

  9. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain,
    Johns’ initial vilification was of his own player, not the opposition. It’s since been claimed that he also vilified other team mates and opposition players. And being a ‘meathead’, as you put it does not diminish the impact or the seriousness of the matter. Andrew Johns was the assistant coach of the NSW State of Origin team. He’s a highly decorated and revered NRL figure. A legend. Yes, it’s a “big deal” when it comes from someone in that position.

    As for the rest of your response, if someone calls you a “pommy bastard”, Iain, and says it with venom & disdain, how the hell does that impact on you the same way calling a black person a “nigger” or a “black c*nt” impacts on them? It doesn’t – not in this country – because white people have not suffered the past indignations that blacks have.

    This is about healing old wounds instead of re-opening them. One day, maybe it will be more acceptable to call someone an “abo’ etc, just like it’s now recognised (legally) that the term “wog” is not racially offensive. That’s because “wogs” (i.e. Greeks & Italians) are no longer suffering the prejudices in society that they once did.

    So instead of riling against the so-called PCness of these issues, maybe you should support the stamping out of racist comments against blacks, asians, etc and then one day you might be able to use them without copping a blast.

  10. deffdredd says:

    Andrew Johns is a twit, and it’s a constant source of frustration to me that he has such high profile positions in rugby league. His commentary during matches is embarrassing, if he hadn’t been such a good footballer he wouldn’t be allowed within a metre of a microphone.

    I’m a white bloke but it makes me uncomfortable to hear the language that has been described in this thread, and when I hear it in my vicinity I challenge it. Even if we do take the opinion that it’s not really racist or misogynist, it’s still very uncivilized behaviour IMO.

    Of course, these events have effectively handed the NSW team underdog status, which is much coveted in State of Origin. Still, I have faith in the mighty Maroons. Queenslander!!!

  11. Ray Dixon says:

    Well I agree, deffredd, that all such insults are uncalled for. The point is that Iain is effectively condoning racist language by dismissing it as the words of a “meathead” and not a “big deal”. He’s also trying to equate it to taunts against whites, but that is just not the same thing. Not when we have a history of discrimination against blacks and when we are trying to address those matters by several means, including the eradication of racist comments made by high profile sportspeople.

  12. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    As for the rest of your response, if someone calls you a “pommy bastard”, Iain, and says it with venom & disdain, how the hell does that impact on you the same way calling a black person a “nigger” or a “black c*nt” impacts on them? It doesn’t – not in this country – because white people have not suffered the past indignations that blacks have.

    Past indignations???? really Ray 🙄 I reject the notion of irrecoverable guilt that you seem to think that “white ” people have about the treatment of other peoples in the past, ANYONE can be racist, yes even black people and it hurts just as much for a “pommy” to be disparaged (as I recall from my childhood as a migrant here) as it would for anyone so disparaged.

    This is about healing old wounds instead of re-opening them. One day, maybe it will be more acceptable to call someone an “abo’ etc, just like it’s now recognised (legally) that the term “wog” is not racially offensive. That’s because “wogs” (i.e. Greeks & Italians) are no longer suffering the prejudices in society that they once did.

    No Ray its about trying to treat everyone as equal in their humanity and that does not require eternal guilt for things done in the past nor does it require eternal resentment either.

    So instead of riling against the so-called PCness of these issues, maybe you should support the stamping out of racist comments against blacks, asians, etc and then one day you might be able to use them without copping a blast.

    The only thing that I can do is to demonstrate by word and deed that I believe that every human being is equal in their humanity I refuse to shoulder any guilt (or apologize) for acts or things spoken by any person , Living or dead.

  13. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    The point is that Iain is effectively condoning racist language by dismissing it as the words of a “meathead” and not a “big deal”. He’s also trying to equate it to taunts against whites, but that is just not the same thing.

    I am not condoning racism but I have spent enough time around the sort of meat heads who use “fuck” and “cunt” like they are universal conjunctives to know that they just don’t think before they engage their mouth, they just don’t even think about what they are saying at all. They often have an equally casual attitude to racially loaded terms too but I don’t think it means that they are going to join the KKK. Its just that they are ignorant and stupid. By all means lets point out the error of their ways but there is no need to lynch them for their stupidity and their ineptitude with language.

  14. Ray Dixon says:

    I can’t help it if your were an over-sensitive kid, Iain. The fact is you were not (and are not) living in a society where such remarks were in any way indicative of a wider discrimination against the British and other white skinned people. It’s not about “guilt” either, it’s about simply recognising & acknowledging that blacks have had a rougher trot due to the colour of their skin and race origins than we have.

  15. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    Discrimination will always be with us and I detest it BUT you don’t have to expect generations of penitence to make up for past sins. Thinking like that is what keeps things like the the ME conflict going for thousands of years, or keeps Bosnians hating the Serbs, Or the Chinese hating the Japanese. There comes a time when you just have to draw a line under the past and say that NOW we are going to try harder to live harmoniously with all other people

    Sure I was a sensitive kid but that does not invalidate my experience.

  16. Ray Dixon says:

    The point is to make them “think”, Iain. Or at least to make others understand that his sort of comments will not be tolerated. That’s why “meatheads” like Johns DO need to be held to account and roundly admonished. You seem to overlook the position he is/was in.

  17. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    I agree that teh point is to make them think but it is NOT about forcing them to comply that will ultimately be futile (because you won’t change their attitudes that way) Instead you need to show them that there is a better way to relate to your fellows.
    I’m not overlooking his position I just don’t think that and sports person is that important in the overall scheme of things. Really his team should have had a quiet word to him explaining that what he said was wrong and stupid and maybe he would have actually changed the way he goes about things. Instead we have some one grandstanding.

    I’m just waiting for some one to suggest that this was all a plot to ensure the five in a row … As if Queensland needs such things 🙄

  18. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain, I hope you’re sufficiently recovered from being labelled “a pommy” as a kid to understand that there is a world of difference between your experience and the very real and ongoing battle to combat racism in this country. And the words used by leading, high profile sportspeople ARE an important part of that process. If Johns can’t be changed then he should be removed from all such public positions.

  19. Iain Hall says:

    There is not such a big problem with racism in this country Ray , not compared to the rest of the world. Now I have in my family a distant rellie who was married to this guy from North Carolina who once told me that “slavery works” this he did with total sincerity and without an ounce of shame or apology. I was totally horrified but I was a guest in his house ect ect. \
    He has subsequently returned to the States and left the family.

  20. Ray Dixon says:

    There are people in this country just as bad as your ex distant in-law from the US. And we obviously still have a problem when meatheads like Johns are not held sufficiently to account. I don’t think we’ve yet reached that stage, Iain, when we can realistically draw that line on the past you talk about and say, “It’s all over and we move forward from here”. There are some terrible, ingrained racists out there.

  21. Ray Dixon says:

    Anyway, getting on to the game: I reckon the NRL has placed too much emphasis on this State of Origin thing and has let the AFL under its guard by claiming more & more of its territory and, now, players! I never thought I’d say this but the AFL’s expansion obsession is finally paying off. NRL is headed for 2nd grade status, even in Queensland & NSW. It has to be a good thing too. I mean, it takes a lot more athleticism & skill to play Aussie Rules. Even more skill than soccer. Btw, the World Cup looks like being a real fizzer.

  22. Iain Hall says:

    Sure there are some terrible racists in this country.
    Sam Watson the indigenous activist he is terrible bigot, as is Sheik Hillali (the cat meat man) and Jack van Tongren but they are fortunately a minority and with the exception Watson who gets a free pass from people who have the same view of what racism is that you have Ray most get called to account for their very real bigotry. They have real intent behind their pronouncements, but some meat head sports person who says something stupid insensitive and offensive is not the real problem with racism in this country.

  23. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    Back onto the game as you suggest Even I know that AFL is never going to supplant Rugby League up here we prefer our big boffy blokes to go the biff and to knock each other to the ground rather than to jump up into the air like a flea circus on the ‘roids !
    Further more we don’t need four goal posts at each end of the field and funny blokes in white hats doing bizzare semaphore signals every time a team scores.
    Heck even the scores in Rugby make more sense than the weird strings of numbers you get in AFL 🙄
    😉
    😉
    😉

  24. Ray Dixon says:

    I’m talking more about the racism that is unfortunately still prevalent among many everyday Australians, not about the nutters like Van Tongren & Sheik Whatshisname. I don’t think aboriginal poet & Senate candidate Watson is very well known let alone well known for spreading racial hatred. The way to get to ordinary Australians is not by the influence of extremists but by people in positions like Johns’, who are not political figures but who occupy a high profile position nonetheless. The AFL have done a much better job than the NRL in combatting this sort of thing. Then again, the AFL is light years ahead of the NRL in every way.

  25. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    Then again, the AFL is light years ahead of the NRL in every way.

    Not that you would be partisan or anything like that now would you ???
    😆

  26. Husky Jim says:

    ““Coon”, “Abbo”, “nigger” and “monkey” – yes, that’s a big deal.”

    Retard?

  27. deffdredd says:

    Ray: “Then again, the AFL is light years ahead of the NRL in every way.”

    Then why do I find myself yelling at the TV during Lions games ‘just pick up the damn ball!’ AFL players are great taking the ball in the air but turn into klutzes once it’s on the ground. 😛

  28. Ray Dixon says:

    Karmichael Hunt is the real “klutz”, deffredd.

  29. Selma says:

    I know it’s not looking too good for us but I’ll say it just the same.
    Go THE MIGHTY BLUES!!!!

  30. Husky Jim says:

    I had an interesting conversation about insults the other day when the news of the fellow who called a copper a Karmichael Hunt (rhyming slang).
    The magistrate said it was now common language to call people such things.

    Interesting that 30 years ago you would have gone in stir for calling a copper a Karmichael Hunt, but not for calling him a coon.

    Full circle or half?

  31. Iain Hall says:

    sorry for your loss Selma 😉
    there is always next year…

  32. Iain Hall says:

    Andrew Bolt has something that I find apt to link to here
    What were you saying about the AFL being light years ahead of the NRL on this issue Ray?
    Hmm it seems to me that meatheads with sleeves are not really that different to meatheads without them…
    😉

  33. Ray Dixon says:

    Mal Brown is not part of the AFL. He’s an ex-player from the 1970s and he was a real thug and he’s always been a d*ckhead. Unlike Johns, he is not involved in any way in the current administration and/or coaching.

    My reference to the AFL being light years ahead of the NRL is correct, including in terms of its attitude to racism. The AFL started a campaign against it more than 10 years ago and now racism is never heard off between players and this has spread to the supporters. They can’t, though, reach old dinosaurs like Brown who shoot their mouth off because they have no authority over him.

  34. Iain Hall says:

    That is not how its playing out in the media this morning Ray….

  35. Ray Dixon says:

    I agree, Iain, the media is portraying this as “the AFL is just as bad as the NRL when it comes to racist comments”. But the reality is that Brown is not part of the AFL administration and what he says is beyond their jurisdiction.

  36. Husky Jim says:

    Mal Brown’s been a prominent part of the AFL culture for the past 30 years.
    We can’t just deny that because he’s said something in a stupid place.
    It’s pefectly clear that his comments were made in jest, in the company of people who saw them in that light, but have been reported and taken entirely out of their context.
    Which is why they are stupid.

  37. Ray Dixon says:

    Mal Brown has not been “a prominent part of the AFL culture for the past 30 years”. He is only remembered for being a Western Australian (& Richmond) thug. He was a blight on the game when he played and he obviously hasn’t changed. He’s not relevant now and he never was.

  38. Husky Jim says:

    He was amember of the Footy Show panel for a decade or more, and is a go to man for comments on a lot of issues pertaining to the game.
    The people who think him irrelevant don’t include the media, and the media are running this issue.

  39. Ray Dixon says:

    He was only on the much less rated Sunday Footy Show in the early 90s. Brown was only a VFL/AFL player for one year – 1974 – and even then he only played 14 games for Richmond due to suspension (for throwing a ball at an umpire). The bloke is no more a part of AFL history than Fred Cook (VFA) is. He’s a WAFL fool and in no way represents current or past AFL culture.

  40. Ray Dixon says:

    Well he has to be right about *some* things, Iain. Btw, Bolt didn’t mention the fact that Brown is hardly an “AFL” figure, but that’s probably because he didn’t know.

    Anyway, my point is that to connect Brown’s comments to the AFL is a real stretch, whereas Johns was an integral part of the current NRL culture and admin.

  41. Husky Jim says:

    It’s funny that not one of the articles reporting the incident have sought to explain who Brown is beyond that he played 14 games for Richmond in 1974.
    Everyone who knows anything about AFL knows who he is. That alone makes him relevent. What’s more he helps organise a legend’s game which cannot be devorced from the AFL, he made to comments in conjunction with that event and he has a son playing in one of the AFL’s more prominant teams.
    He’s absolutely relevant.
    Now I agree that Trevor Chappell isn’t a reprisentative of Cricket Australia, but if he was to make racist comments, or comments taken as racist by the PC crowd, it would reflect on the culture of cricket and cricketers. Especially if he was involved in nostalgia games and/or had a son still prominant in the game.

  42. Ray Dixon says:

    Anyone who knows anything about AFL knows that Mal Brown only represents the WAFL. And if Trevor Chappel made racist comments it most certainly would not reflect on C.A. He was a bit player 30 years ago known only for being the least talented of 3 brothers and for bowling that underarm at the Kiwis in 1981. I don’t think he even played Test cricket. Your example supports my contention that you can’t connect the attitudes of fringe dwellers from the past to the culture of the present.

  43. Husky Jim says:

    Who said I was seeking to do any other thing.
    I agree that Brown’s not representing the AFL, but I don’t agree that Brown is mearly a fringe dweller (was that deliberate irony?).
    That said, anyone with even a passing interest in Australian rules would realise that the WAFL is as much a part of the AFL as the VFL is. Brown is as big a name in WAFL stature as Barassi or Skilton are in VFL. Or Cornes and Cahill are in SANFL.
    Ron Barassi and Bob Skilton played only VFL and had either man made those comments there would be no walking away from the fact that they were reflective of the culture of the code.
    I’m not particularly offended by the joke. I doubt that it would have registered at all had it not been for the truely racist actions of Johns in NSW. However, nobody can walk away from the fact that Brown’s a well known member of the AFLs aristocracy and that the comments reflect poorly on the code.
    Any attempt to shy away from that is head in sand stuff.

  44. Ray Dixon says:

    I disagree that Brown is a member of the “AFL aristocracy” at all. Who could he be? He’s never been part of the AFL and he was barely part of the VFL. You seem not to realise that the AFL was born out of the VFL. It is effectively the VFL under a rebranded name and with extra teams added. But that expansion – and its present structure – does NOT include taking over the WAFL, SANFL, etc. Those competitions have always been, and remain, independent & separate of the AFL. Brown is the WAFL’s problem, not the AFL’s. The AFL are doing a pretty good job combatting racism but they can’t be held responsible for some old turkey/cowboy/thug from the wild west.

  45. Ray Dixon says:

    that should read: “How could he be?”

    Btw, I concede that because Brown is a well known WAFL identity it creates the perception that Aussie Rules is tarnished by his comments. My point is that, in reality, he is outside their control and no matter how well the AFL conducts itself they can’t prevent idiots like him running off at the mouth.

  46. Husky Jim says:

    hat’s avery insular Victorian view.
    The ALF has many members of the hall of fame who never played in Melbourne (VFL) at least 2 of the legends of the AFL are non Victorians, one of whom (Barry Robran)never played and one of whom (Polly Farmer) only played 101 games.

    Peter Carey (Glenelg), John Daly (Norwood/West Adelaide), George Doig (East Fremantle), Russell Ebert (Port Adel (SANFL)/North Melbourne), Ken Farmer (North Adelaide), Bob Hank (West Torrens), Lindsay Head (West Torrens), Neil Kerley (West Adelaide/South Adelaide/Glenelg), Tom MacKenzie (West Torrens/North Adelaide), Steve Marsh (South Fremantle/East Fremantle), Merv McIntosh (Perth), Stephen Michael (South Fremantle), Dan Moriarty (South Adelaide), Geof Motley (Port Adelaide), Bob Quinn (Port Adelaide SANFL)

    Need I go on?
    All members of the AFL hall of fame. Between them-25 games- of VFL. All played by Ebbert.
    I would make the case that Brown is better known than most of those men – even within AFL ranks and AFL followers. Let alone the fact that we’re talking about the perseption of the AFL outside of the AFL. People in NSW and Queensland don’t make the distinction between Brown and some of the obscure names above who are members of the hall of fame of the game.
    Brown is/was a huge name in WA. As big as Barassi or Whitten is/was in Victoria.
    You can not back away from Brown as giving the perseption at least that the AFL has an issue with insensitivity (more like hypersensitivity actually) surrounding the subject of race. It does nothing to correct that perception by simply seeking to make statements distancing Brown from the AFL.

  47. Ray Dixon says:

    I’ve already conceded that this reflects badly on the AFL because it is regarded as the highest body in Aussie Rules footy and, indeed, it does over-arch other leagues with its Hall of Fame awards, etc as you correctly point out. Point taken.

    But my point remains that, despite these “connections”, they are not ones that allow the AFL to go around imposing conditions and/or educating boofheads like Brown from other leagues like the WAFL on the way they conduct themselves. It’s simply beyond their control.

    So let’s agree to disagree on that.

    Yes, as a supporter of the AFL and its anti-racism stance, I am definitely keen to distance them from Brown’s remarks. Perhaps the underlying difference of opinion you and I have here is that you seem to think there was nothing wrong with what Brown said. Please explain.

  48. Husky Jim says:

    The poor uneducated masses of Queensland and NSW don’t care that it’s simply beyond AFL control.

    What Brown said was said in jest. It’s a part of a schtick that he’s used for years and my suspision is that the person who recorded it knew that and wanted to make a name for themself.

    Brown’s used this story at least once when I was present. Slightly modified, and without using the term cannibals to my recolection. The interesting thing was that when he said it Glenn James was sitting beside him laughing his arse off. Completely unoffended.
    When you talk to your close mates do you ever call them fatso, baldy, shorty, dago or a bastard?
    I do and so do my mates.
    I’m sure that Brown has called those mates of his cannibals to their face in private many times and they have never objected because they just call him fatty.
    It’s so not offensive when taken in context.
    I would never call my mate Mick the bastard in front of his mother, and Brown should never call anyone a cannibal in any context where genuine offence might result.
    As a presenter at a sportsman’s function, where working blue and hurling insults is a part of the night, you can hardly be genuinely offended by his remarks.

  49. Ray Dixon says:

    There’s so much ignorance in that I don’t know where to start. I’ll just let the HeraldSun’s chief footy writer Mike Sheahan say it for me:

    When I started covering AFL in the 1970s, lunches and sportsmen’s nights usually boasted entertainment that included a hired comedian, a couple of retired footballers and a compere/raconteur with links to the game.

    All feasted on the indigenous identities of the day, with Carlton star Syd Jackson, umpire Glenn James and the Krakouer brothers Jim and Phil the popular targets.

    They seemed to take them in their stride at the time, but what was the alternative sitting among 300, 400 and more people laughing uproariously at the jokes based on the colour of their skin.

    Imagine this one told these days. “Jamesy’s putting a new wing on his house … he found another sheet of corrugated iron.”

    I laughed along with the rest, James included. Year by year, fewer people laughed, and when Nicky Winmar and Michael Long brought an end to an ignorant culture, we wondered why it had taken so long.

    You need to stop living in the past.

  50. Husky Jim says:

    Ok so now you want to make it about me again Ray?

    There’s a vast difference between jokes about corrugated iron and the fact that a black man’s more difficult to see in the dark.

    At the same sportsman’s night I spoke of above, James made several jokes about pointing the bone and also about Keith Greig getting sunburned because he went out and played in a night game at Waverly without applying sunscreen. Sheahan and now you, conveniently ignore the fact that these blokes give as good as they get and that it should be taken exactly in that light.
    People who take offence where there is none intended are more than often looking to pick a fight. In this case there can be little doubt that Brown has been the victim of a journalist wanting to make a name for themself.
    As I said originally, his stupidity was in being inprudent, not in being racist.

  51. Ray Dixon says:

    I was commenting on your comment, not about you. It beats me how you could possibly interpret that as anything personal – to start with, you’re anonymous!

    Anyway, a joke based on someone’s race is a racist joke and reflects a racist minset. Yes, some are worse than others but once the line is crossed it’s crossed. I don’t agree that it would have been okay if the media were not there. There were hundreds of people in the room and Brown knew the media were there. He even goaded them about it. To equate their jokes about us is ridiculous. That’s like saying abusing a little kid is the same as the kid being cheeky.

    You & Brown don’t get it, do you? As I just said to someone else on my own blog: When someone like Brown makes jokes about “abos” it indicates that even though he might not be a hater, he is quite comfortable with keeping them in a disadvantaged and inferior position in society and as the butt of his crass jokes. It is this kind of stereotyping that reinforces to aborigines that they are not really accepted as equal. Brown is not only “behind the times”, he wants things to stay that way.

    It’s just unacceptable full stop. If you came into my house and made those type of jokes I’d ask you to stop … or leave. And if I went to yours and you made them then I’d leave.

  52. Husky Jim says:

    Why comment on ME at all?
    Commenting on where I need to live is not a critique of my comments. It’s a personal jibe. Something you have been very sensitive about when directed at you mate. But wh have discussed your duplicity before and should refrain from entering that again.
    BTW, I’m not coming to your house and you can be damn sure you won’t be coming to mine mate.
    Just saying “To equate their jokes about us is ridiculous.” indicates that you have a them and us attitude yourself.
    Jokes made by aboriginals about white men are no less offensive than ours against them. No less or more funny either. Your analogy about a child is cactus. Make the chile do the same thing to the adult. A better analogy is a child shooting an adult. It’s using a weapon to cause an injury. Except that in the case of a sportsman’s night it’s a JOKE and its meant as a JOKE and should be taken as one. People hang shit on Bartlett about his goal hunger, Andrews about his toughness, Brownless about his softness, Greig about his freckles, Nolan about his weight, Brereton about his strutt.
    Nobody’s saying that they are less of a human or less of a champion or less of a man or from a different “CLASS” (only a lefty would attempt to play that card). They are simply recognising difference as a point of attack in a shit stiring battle.
    As I said you would never call a stranger a fat prick, but you might call your best mate who’s carrying a couple of extra kilos one when he drains a 35 footer to take ten bucks out of your pocket at the golf club.
    These blokes are mates and their comments should be seen in that light. Context is everything.
    When someone takes their comments out of comments then they can make anything that they like out of them.
    For christ sake, Dipper has been stood down for what?
    Lets say he gets to have that happen to every person who ever made a Wog joke, at his expense for the past 30 years?
    Redicerless! as my 10 year old used to say. (When she was 3)

  53. Ray Dixon says:

    Yeah, the indigenous players just love it when they get together with a room full of predominantly white people who call them “abos” & “cannibals” and make jokes about their race and about other “abos” who aren’t even in the room. It’s okay by them because it’s among “mates” and these blokes are really just having a bit of fun. And they’re really pissed off that this got out in the media. I bet the idigenous players wish it had all stayed in house. They hate this being brought out in the open because it means their “mates” might have to stop being such boofheads and grow up. Their families think it’s okay too and are just appalled that some media prick made news out of it. And Nicky Winmar & Syd Jackson are only upset because they wren’t there to enjoy this good natured abuse and racial ribbing from their “mates”. They miss it since they retired from footy. Victoria Park, now that was a great place for “mates” too. Nicky remembers it well. Christ, he misses all that. F*cking media!

  54. Husky Jim says:

    Except for the fact that there’s no harm intended, you’re absolutely correct. That’s the point though. Nobody in a room full of predominantly white people is seriously thinking that they are from another “Class”. In that same room, those same people call white people “ghost” or “chalky” without malice. That’s the point Ray there’s no malice intended and there’s none taken. Except by those, not involved, who have another agenda completely and take the whole thing out of context.

    And why the problen with “abos”? It’s no more intended as an insult than Jim for James or Ray for Raymond.

    Victoria park was another forum and another context. Which again is the point. In that situation it was malicious and you are correct, but what this argument is doing is attempting to equate one situation with the other and that’s completely out of the question. However there are certain sections of the media and the community for whom the agenda is irrelevent to the facts. The rest of the media are now rushing to fall into step so as not to be the ones identified and vilified for not getting in line. Had Brown not used the term “Cannibals” there would be no issue. “Black fellers” seems to pass muster in most contexts, as far as I see it, but I have agreed above that Cannibals was a poor choice of terms and part of the reason he’s ended up in hot water.
    As I said, Dipper? A racist? Seriously are they MAD?

    But you now seem to be making Iain’s point for him, that there is an issue in the AFL with this kind of attitude?
    Amazing how some blokes will agree or disagree depending on who proffers the argument.

  55. Ray Dixon says:

    HJ, the move to eradicate racist remarks against aborigines is national and is not restricted to the AFL and applies pretty much across the board and pretty much in all “forums”, be they a boozy sportsmens’ night, a gathering of AFL “legends”, Victoria Park or Robert Dipierdemenico speaking to a school group.

    Maybe you hadn’t noticed but most people think that’s unacceptable behaviour in all places, public or private.

    You see, we (i.e. the great bulk of decent Australians) want to raise the status of aborigines who have suffered a fair bit of discrimination and disadvantage since the First Fleet arrived in 1788. That’s why we had the apology and that’s why we think it’s worth going out of our way to NOT make racist remarks against those whose origins in this country Australia go back a lot further than anyone else’s.

    It’s really not a big sacrifice to make and if you just give it a go I promise it won’t diminish you as a person. It might even make you a better one.

  56. Husky Jim says:

    I watched before the game tonight. Basically it is a spotsman’s night on telly.
    The jokes included:
    Bald jokes about KB.
    Mo jokes about Dipper.
    Short jokes about Robin Nahas
    Some lightly veiled homosexual antics by Mick Malloy.
    An Asian joke about North Korean soccer supporters which shen morphed into an Asian joke about Collingwood.
    So who’s entitled to be and who’s not entitled to be offended by any or all of those jokes?

    Also, it was discussed that Dipper’s comments (not made to a school group but a football club) were made BEFORE Browns, but not reported. That makes the argument that this is not media driven rather mute.

    Ok so time for you to answer a question.

    If abreviating the term ABORIGINIE to ABO is offensive, is calling someone a RETARD OK?

  57. Ray Dixon says:

    I watched ‘Before the game’ too, and I didn’t hear anything offensive against OUR indigineous people.

    That’s what this is about – Australia reconciling itself to its own past. It’s not about discrimination against ALL races and minorities per se, but about first addressing a singular issue of racism that is much closer to home – our relationship with aborigines.

    There are other issues of discrimination that need addressing too, but this matter – addressing racist slurs against our own indigenous people – takes priority. Once we get that right it’s pretty automatic that the rest will follow.

    And yes, I think it’s okay to call TONY ABBOTT a retard. It’s nowhere near as offensive as the Brown & Dipper comments about our indigenous people.

  58. Husky Jim says:

    Well that’s all complete crap.
    Discrimination, where it truely exists, should never be excused because of whom it is directed. And where it does not exist it should never be used as an excuse to admonish those who have done nothing more than make jokes that selective people find off.

    As I said the other day, and have since had proven by the Dipper incident, this issue is not about what was said, but who is was said in front of. The NRL situation, which was overt racism and quite malicious, has hightened the sensitivities of the politically correct and caused a storm in a thimble.
    Retard is an offensive term Ray. No less offensive than abo.
    It’s not amazing at all that you now argue that the context excuses its use.
    Your duplicate standards of behaviour are rather like a vu vu zela. Loud, clear and droning.

  59. Ray Dixon says:

    I’ve made my points about this – that racist remarks about our aborigines are just not on. You can twist that and pontificate all you like, but the fact remains that in this country, they are the people that have suffered the most discrimination & disadvantage. It is the big issue that must be dealt with. That’s all from me, although I know YOU will want to keep going to prove God knows whatever point it is.

  60. Husky Jim says:

    No I’ll leave it there.
    You call people retard as an insult.
    If I did that at work it would result as instant dismisal.

    I have nothing further to add to the argument beyond that.

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