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What would you do with these men PKD?

A year ago I wrote this post where I suggested that closing Club Gitmo would not be achieved in the time frame suggested by Barack Obama and now I have been vindicated as the deadline passes without any resolution to the disposition of this group of dangerous men.

The US has just missed a deadline to close the prison camp

Some 35 prisoners have been recommended for prosecution through trials or military commissions.

The news came as the deadline US President Barack Obama had set himself for closing the prison camp passed.

The task force, led by the US justice department, recommended that while 35 people could be prosecuted, 110 could be released either now or at a later date, unnamed officials said.

The other nearly 50 detainees are considered too dangerous to release, but cannot be tried because the evidence against them is too flimsy or was extracted from them by coercion, so would not hold up in court.

Cheers Comrades

😉

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52 Comments

  1. Tessa Dick says:

    Politicians lie — it’s what they do. Phil wanted people to wake up, look around and see the lies.

  2. Tessa Dick says:

    gotta do this to get posts sent to me by email — forgot to check the box last time

  3. Iain Hall says:

    No worries Tessa

  4. MK says:

    I’m sure pkd will insist on nothing less than an immediate release, fast-track to green card status, bumped to the front of the welfare queue, an apology from divine lord obama, a national day of remembrance or some such shit and maybe a toyota prius for them to tootle around San Francisco bay. Can forget mother earth you know.

  5. PKD says:

    I’ve told you plenty of times before Iain, if there is insufficient evidence to try these people, then you have to release them. If our intelligence services are still concerned that they may ‘pose a threat’ (*) then keep tabs on them. Thats what we pay these people for.

    (*) http://www.boingboing.net/2008/01/09/tsa-searches-detains.html – just one example of incompetence. Why should you automatically believe Security services without question MK? Perhaps covert intelligence services unanswerable to democracy appeals to your brand of far-right extremism…

  6. Iain Hall says:

    The only way to keep effective tabs on these men is to keep them locked up PKD
    That is Obama’s problem he has said he wants to shut the facility in Cuba but just as I said a year ago it is easir said than done for all kinds of reasons.

  7. PKD says:

    Thats assuming that the intelligence services are correct in their views. As you know with Iraq as just one notorious example, they make plenty of mistakes too.

    Try and stop having blind faith in their judgement will you?
    You’re AGW denial faith is starting to show though here too. Don’t need any evidence, just accept blindly that what you are being spoon fed must be true.

    Yep – definitely a recurring pattern here…

  8. Iain Hall says:

    What i find most amusing is your endless faith in one set of professionals because they wear white coats But as soon as there is a hint of Camo pants then then you do a 180 degree pirouette.
    Look at it this way PKD If your wishes are met and these men do manage to commit some Jihadist atrocity how could you sleep at night knowing that you helped facilitate another 9/11? That is the crux of the problem here and for the politicians who have to find a solution to the problem citing some high minded principle (as you do) is about as useful as titties on a bull.

  9. Len says:

    The way “these people” operate, evidence is very difficult to gather. The devices they use, utilise designs that are ferried around the groups, and are bulk built, to those designs apparently. Hard to differentiate who, within the groups involved, built them.

    By putting these people behind bars, without charge, is a simple solution, just to get them out of the way, so they can’t kill or hurt anyone else, and can be seen as a major effort, to remove their power base, by separating them from their disillusioned followers.

    It is not the fault of the intelligence services here guys. Having been in the service, the intelligence is there, it is just the lack of action by the powers that be, on that intelligence , that is the problem.

    It is widely known, the media over the last years has told us that, 9/11 could possibly have been averted, had the US powers that be, had taken action, on the prior available intelligence handed to them, if they had not been so arrogant believing they were beyond reach ?

    As far as I am concerned, if it saves one life in the process, then indefinite detaineeship in Club Gitmo is warranted in such a case, and my rebuttal to the rhetoric from the long haired thonged ones is, tough ! Put them all in the one place, and watch them like hawks.

  10. JM says:

    Iain, this is hardly news, it has been discussed widely in the US press over the last few months.

    Apparently, there’s a plan to shift them to a high security jail in Illinois – appropriate since the jail is holding a few home grown terrorists from the 90’s militia era.

    Don’t see what your problem is actually

  11. PKD says:

    Iains problem is that he’d love the US to detain anyone the intelligence agencies see fit without trial indefinitely without any cross examination.
    And knowing that no system is perfect means you are going to detain some innocents wrongly.

    Given we can never have a perfect, always correct legal system, I have always preferred to let one guilty person free than detain, or indeed execute, one innocent man. I guess Iain is always gong to prefer locking up innocents in the effort to try and hold more guilty people.

    Yes JM, moving these people to Illinois would bea good start. And I notice the most recent attempt to blow up the plane from Amsterdam hasn’t resulted in the suspect being shipped off to GItmo for indefinite detention either…

    What i find most amusing is your endless faith in one set of professionals because they wear white coats

    Thats utter nonsense BTW.
    My ‘faith’ is in science that is properly validated and independently cross examined.
    Your faith is in pseudo science that doesn’t need to be independently verified, as long as it meets your political ideology. I find your approach more of a white straight jacket than a white coat philosiphy…

  12. Iain Hall says:

    JM
    The essence of this post is to point out that my prediction of a year ago was in fact correct insofar as Obama has not been able to do what he said he would in that grand gesture. That much of the left leaning press (and blogs) has made little of the matter is note worthy on its own.
    PKD

    Iains problem is that he’d love the US to detain anyone the intelligence agencies see fit without trial indefinitely without any cross examination.

    Er no that is NOT my position at all. I am a pragmatic man and these individuals are essentially combatants in a declared war who can be legitimately detained for the duration as far as I am concerned but you insist on thinking that this is just a problem for the criminal law and that is the weakness of your argument, even the most vile kiddie fiddler will do less harm than than one suicide bomber yet you would release all of them just because one might be entirely innocent….
    We detain without trial people who are insane so why can’t we detain those who are insane enough to want to kill and die in the name of Allah?

  13. PKD says:

    to want to kill and die in the name of Allah?

    Technically we’re doing that too with the ‘Jesus sights’ debacle in putting scripture references on the guns we’ve given our soldiers. Thats how the other side will see it anyway.

    I am concerned but you insist on thinking that this is just a problem for the criminal law

    Thats worked well wnough for other terrorists – including the most recent attempt to blow up the plane from Amsterdam. I see you ignored that point – I can see why given it shows up the falseness of your argument…

  14. Iain Hall says:

    PKD
    Firtly you ignore my reference to detaining the insane with out trial….

    Technically we’re doing that too with the ‘Jesus sights’ debacle in putting scripture references on the guns we’ve given our soldiers. Thats how the other side will see it anyway.

    Then you try to drag a bizarre but silly titbit into the argument. Its silly because the soldiers themselves were entirely unaware of the significance on the inscriptions so to suggest that using the gun sights means that they are killing for Jesus is just ridiculous.

    Thats worked well enough for other terrorists – including the most recent attempt to blow up the plane from Amsterdam. I see you ignored that point – I can see why given it shows up the falseness of your argument…

    The latest terrorist scum bag was captured in a US plane in US airspace so his crime was committed in a US domestic jurisdiction, those at club Gitmo were on foreign soil. Different jurisdictions have different rules , simple,even a first year law student knows that.

  15. Len says:

    We all know why Club Gitmo is there.

    If they landed on, and were tried under US law, they would probably get off, due to the unbelievably soft rules, when it comes to rights. These people have, in my opinion, no rights. They lost those rights, by attempting to strap a bomb on their backs, to kill civilians. I still think that the powers that be are going after the wrong people. They should be going after the cowards, that give the orders. Notice, they never put themselves in risk by doing so. That idiot in Sydney, was a classic example. See how he scampered back under his rock, when he started flapping his gums ?

    These people when caught, are caught in a military act, therefore, should be tried under military law, a much tougher system of justice, that doesn’t fool around with semantics. Note that all caught so far, cry foul, when such proceedings get under way ?

    Don’t fool yourselves people. It may not be called a war, but it follows all the rules of war. We should play under their rules, not hard, considering they don’t have any ?

  16. PKD says:

    Then you try to drag a bizarre but silly titbit into the argument. Its silly because the soldiers themselves were entirely unaware of the significance on the inscriptions so to suggest that using the gun sights means that they are killing for Jesus is just ridiculous.

    I take it you missed the bit where I said ‘thats how the other side will see it anway’? If the scriptures are as insignificant as you claim, then why the rush to remove all the references from the sights?

    The latest terrorist scum bag was captured in a US plane in US airspace so his crime was committed in a US domestic jurisdiction, those at club Gitmo were on foreign soil. Different jurisdictions have different rules , simple,even a first year law student knows that.

    As I pointed out to you previously, ~86% of Gitmo detainees we’re rounded up in Pakistan by the security forces. What jursidiction does the US have to detain, much less try such people? None as far as I am aware…

  17. PKD says:

    Don’t fool yourselves people. It may not be called a war, but it follows all the rules of war. We should play under their rules, not hard, considering they don’t have any ?

    Because Len, you are not going to win the ideological war by acting as barbarically as those we are fighting by reducing ourselves to their level. Don’t forget that democracy, human rights et al are what distinguishes us from the fundamentalists nutbags.
    And we’re not going to win anything without winning the ideological war – winning hearts and minds and that kind of stuff is what is finally helping restore a sembelnce of normality in Iraq, not by acting like dictators ourselves.

  18. Len says:

    It has been proven for the last ten plus years, that these people cannot survive under a western democratic system. They can’t handle it, and don’t want it.

    You want to win a fight in the mud, you have to get down in the mud with them, and slug it out. If they use knives, we use guns. The entirety of the UN, as well as NATO, have tried for the past near twenty some years, to do things diplomatically in Iraq. What did they get for their trouble ? The enemy put bombs in hospitals, killing doctors and nurses just because their may have been a military ambulance parked out the front.

    Winning the war, by acting humanely, and respecting human rights only works, when the enemy respect those same human rights themselves. Not happening is it ?

    BTW, it is not about competing ideologies, nor religion funnily enough.

    Its power.
    Who has it,
    Who wants it, and
    What these idiots will do to attain it.

    From what I have seen so far, pretty much anything goes. The UN/NATO should continually act/react accordingly ?

  19. Len says:

    BTW, that is why the yanks failed in Vietnam. They couldn’t go that extra yard needed. They didn’t have the stomach for it.

  20. Tessa Dick says:

    so far,no Christian pastor has asked me strap a bomb to my body and walk into a Muslim gathering place — and I would never do it, anyway

  21. PKD says:

    so far,no Christian pastor has asked me strap a bomb to my body and walk into a Muslim gathering place — and I would never do it, anyway

    Thats only because Christian is no longer into Crusades – our society has left Christian fundamentalism behind in the last couple of centuries. Just be grateful you weren’t a Cathar when they were still around, to name just one example…

  22. PKD says:

    BTW, that is why the yanks failed in Vietnam. They couldn’t go that extra yard needed. They didn’t have the stomach for it.

    Conversely Len, acting with brutality is one of the often cited reasons for Hitler losing the war against Russia. By acting as an occupying force instead of a liberating one he effectively galvanised and united the people, many of who hated Lenin, behind their dictator.

    And the only way we are going to win anything against the fundamentalists is as liberating forces, not occupying ones. The tactics you advocate have been given 8 odd years to work with little success. How much longer do you think you need?

  23. Len says:

    Hitler lost the war to Russia due to the lateness of his attack, and the division of his forces. He left it too late. Winter set in, he had no supply chain in place, and that was the end of that. It’s in the history books.

    The tactic of liberation forces, hasn’t worked either has it ? They have occupied Iraq for years under the guise of liberation, and the population behind their back hate them, and secretly plot their deaths.

    It has been proven, time and time again, that western style democracy does not work in the Middle East. Never will. They have to be ruled by an iron will, and usually accompanying fist, and the west simply don’t have the stomach for it. It is akin to domestic political hari kari.

  24. MK says:

    “If our intelligence services are still concerned that they may ‘pose a threat’ (*) then keep tabs on them.”

    So that’s a ‘yes’ to immediate release, fast-track to green card status, bumped to the front of the welfare queue, an apology from divine lord obama, a national day of remembrance or some such shit and maybe a toyota prius for them to tootle around San Francisco bay, with an FBI agent keeping tabs on them?

    “Thats only because Christian is no longer into Crusades…”

    Because the mohamedans aren’t making open war upon us like they were back in the day of their pedophile prophet.

  25. ileum says:

    Where did you do first year law, Iain?

  26. PKD says:

    Thats a ‘no’ to virtually all of your anti-far right ravings MK.
    Keep taking the pills though – sheesh!

  27. PKD says:

    Len, you need to brush up on your history.
    The Germans deliberately didn’t have any winter gear because they were expecting complete victory before the winter.

    That they didn’t is down to a significant extent to the way they treat the places they initially ‘liberated’. When the rest of the Russian population saw that Hitler was treating those places even worse, it galvanised the resistance against them – including creating an insurgency in the places captured. Sound familiar yet?

    If Hitler had generally been a liberating force he probably would have been done and dusted well before the Winter had started…

  28. Len says:

    I thought that was a round about way of what I said ? From wiki :

    Hitlers invasion to Russia fail because Germany wasn’t prepared for the climate condition of Russia. When the winter arose the Germans couldn’t continue, because they didn’t have food, or anything to cover against the low temperature of Russia. The Germans start to die, and they decided to give up on trying to conquer Russia, so they signed a treaty on non aggression were Germany said they woudn’t try to take over Russia again.
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Hitler%27s_invasion_of_Russia_fail_and_what_effect_did_the_Russian_victory_have_on_the_Allies

    and from perhaps a more legitimate source ? :

    When the German invasion of Russia began in June 1941, Germany could potentially defeat Russia and win the war. Its initial victories were tremendous. Russian losses in men, equipment, and land, were unbelievably enormous. But Russia is HUGE, with endless resources, its soldiers are tough, and its winter is terrible for anyone not fully equipped for it, and the German military was definitely NOT equipped for the Russian winter, and knew it.
    http://www.2worldwar2.com/when-hitler-lost.htm

  29. Len says:

    sorry, the formatting didn’t come out right ? Oops ! 😦

  30. Iain Hall says:

    Ileum
    It is a figure of speech.

  31. PKD says:

    Len – that has to be one of the worst Wiki answers I’ve seen.

    There has been an excellent podcast series on the Eastern front by Dan Carlin, which I highly recommend to you – and anyone else who may be interested!

    The URL is http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive – epsidoes 27 to 30, “Ghosts of the Ostfront”.

    Again, the only reason the weather became a factor was because the Germans didn’t win before the end of Summer as they were expecting. One of the main reasons why is the way they were brutally treating the places they captured, thus galvanising resistance against them.

    You’ll find thats a key point in the show.

    Cheers!

  32. Len says:

    Maybe the Wiki answer was not to your liking, so, that was why I included the second, supposedly more respectable source. They both said the same thing.

    With Germany having the yanks and Brits on one side, they foolishly split their forces, to attack Russia to the east. They were delayed in doing so, as you suggested by the unanticipated resistance that they faced, and thus began the downfall after that. You are correct partially though, in that Hitler arrogantly thought he could defeat Russia quickly and easily. He was unprepared for the tenacity of the Russian forces that he faced, and as such, did not have a reliable supply chain backing his forces up.

    We are losing sight of the main argument though. The tactics used in Iraq, by the yanks, were/are trying to smooth over the radical sects in that country, and, it is still my position, that it is a waste of time. These tribes, for want of a better term, have been brought together, and survived together for centuries, due to a heavy handed ruling structure from Baghdad. Hussein, and others, love them or loathe them, succeeded, because they would go that extra yard, by eliminating any opposition.

    The country cannot survive in a western style democracy. There are too many warring factions, or tribes, that don’t want peace. They want power, and whilst ever these tribes stick to their traditional ways, there will be nothing but war in this country. Nothing that the US, or NATO, or even the UN do, will ever change that.

    Going in there with a pretty white helmet with UN engraved on it, will never achieve anything.
    It is a akin to raising a red flag in front of a bull !

  33. PKD says:

    Incidentally you slavishly copied and big error from the WIki answer, namely:

    The Germans start to die, and they decided to give up on trying to conquer Russia, so they signed a treaty on non aggression were Germany said they woudn’t try to take over Russia again.

    When the 3rd answer actually corrected it…

    The “non aggression” treaty that is mentioned in the first answer was actually signed by Stalin and Hitler BEFORE the war.. It was Hitler’s way of convincing Stalin that he was not going to attack.

    You are losing sight of the real point I made with comparing the Eastern front to Iraq. If the Germans had gone in as liberators instead of new opperssors, they would probably have won.

    Likewise if the Americans had really gone in and liberated the place properly, instead of occupying the place and allowing debacles like Abu Gharaib to occur, then Iraq would prabably have settled down into a more peaceful state much more quickly. Regardless of whether there was democracy or not.

    Liberation versus occupation – got it?

  34. PKD says:

    They were delayed in doing so, as you suggested by the unanticipated resistance that they faced, and thus began the downfall after that.

    And again you miss the point that the ‘unanticipated’ resistance was of their own making. It came about in main because of the way they treated the places they initially conquered…hence the analogy between there and Iraq.

  35. Len says:

    “It came in the main” due to the fact that they saw the invasion force coming across the dunes (or snow in Russia’s case) ?

    Liberators huh ? Two words for ya, Bull Sh*t !

    You see an invasion force coming towards you with guns, tanks, and a million or so foot solders, a vision of being liberated, is hardly what was being seen. Intelligence had already told of the incoming invasion force, so even if the troops gave each villager a dozen roses and a box of chockies, it would still not be seen as being a liberating force ?

    In so far as your “rose-coloured glasses” view of what the US should have done, they tried that. What happened ? Remember Kuwait ? That didn’t work did it ? They tried the diplomatic route so many times with Hussein, and all he did was laugh in their faces.

    I respect your view, that diplomacy can solve all problems PKD, but, after actually serving in some of these places over the years, tells me that your opinion is coming from a place, that has never suffered the extraordinary tactics that these dissidents stoop to. We are dealing with zealots, power hungry zealots, that will stoop to any level to achieve their deluded vision. It seems that you can’t accept this fact. You seem to think that the country is occupied by fair minded people, who want nothing more than a wide spread love in. To live in peace, to prosper. Nice dream, but again, its all about power. They will do anything to get it, including getting their blinded young to strap bombs to their chests, to blow up kids in cafes.

    These people don’t warrant diplomacy,
    they warrant full on obliteration from history.

  36. PKD says:

    “It came in the main” due to the fact that they saw the invasion force coming across the dunes (or snow in Russia’s case) ?

    Sigh – just listen to the Ostfront shows Len. The people in the territories originally taken (Like the Baltic states) hated Lenin. They would have happily welcomed genuine liberators.

    Liberators huh ? Two words for ya, Bull Sh*t !
    You see an invasion force coming towards you with guns, tanks, and a million or so foot solders, a vision of being liberated, is hardly what was being seen.

    Tell that to the French when they were being liberated by the US and UK.

    These people don’t warrant diplomacy,
    they warrant full on obliteration from history.

    Outdated mantra that hasn’t worked, isn’t working, and isn’t going to work. Straight from the Georgy Dubya school of thinking…

  37. Len says:

    The people in the territories originally taken (Like the Baltic states) hated Lenin. They would have happily welcomed genuine liberators.

    Didn’t give their illustrious “liberators” much of a welcome did they ?

    No point in bringing any more races, or religions in to the argument here PKD. You keep wandering away from the main theme of the thread.

    We are dealing with “Islamic Extremism” in Iraq. We have seen the extent they will go to, in their attempt to convert the planet to their twisted vision of Utopia.

    No point in blaming GW for all our woes. I would blame his wanker Generals, that gave him that great advice. There is no easy solution here. I note that you haven’t supplied any either ? These people will not respond to diplomacy, as I have said many times here. They only live by the sword for want of a better term.

    The world’s intelligence services know who all the trouble-makers are. These are the people, who successfully hide from view, but steer their blinded followers from caves beneath the ground somewhere, too cowardly to show their ugly faces. These are the people that have to be got. In my opinion, no holds barred. You get these w*ankers, and their support, their tactics, will fall over very quickly. Until then, they will direct guerilla warfare in these regions to their hearts content, killing anything in their way.

    None of your dreamworld diplomatic efforts will avert that !

  38. Iain Hall says:

    PKD

    Outdated mantra that hasn’t worked, isn’t working, and isn’t going to work. Straight from the Georgy Dubya school of thinking…

    The only reason that it has not worked is that slaughter of all enemy combatants has gone out of fashion.As Len suggests The USA and all modern western nations lack the will to be as brutal as some of the despots that they wish to remove. Quite simply the idea of taking prisoners and later letting them go is a modern one (that I don’t oppose BTW) But when you are dealing with despots who are willing to kill hundreds of thousands of their own people as Saddam was then perhaps you have to use the local currency (of brutality ) if you really want to win.
    But I suppose that you are in mourning because the Iraqi’s hung “chemical Ali” yesterday, now if ever a scumbag deserved the rope it was that man.

  39. PKD says:

    I’m certainly not in mourning about Ali Iain, but I do oppose the death penalty in principle, not on individual cases – as you well know.

  40. Iain Hall says:

    I know where you stand on Capital punishment PKD but I could not resist a friendly dig when you raised teh Iraq question again 🙂

  41. MK says:

    “Thats a ‘no’ to virtually all of your anti-far right ravings MK.”

    Anti-far right, don’t you mean far right? Otherwise i’d swear you were giving me a compliment, or coming on to me.

    “Keep taking the pills though – sheesh!”

    No worries i will, but judging from your avatar, you should lay off them chump, seriously.

    Anyway to clarify, so if one of those poor terrorists turns out to be innocent, insufficient evidence, imperfect justice system and all that you wouldn’t even demand a prius for the fellow, no welfare cheque, just a boot up the ass and off you go, sorry for the inconvenience, back to Pakistan with you? I’m sure you’d insist that i’m the far-right, racist, homophobic, mass-murderer and all that, but even i’d support a prius for the poor fellow, maybe not a brand new one, but at least an old one.

    Bloody hell pkd, you’re not really that heartless a bastard are you?

  42. PKD says:

    I’m sure you’d insist that i’m the far-right, racist, homophobic, mass-murderer and all that, but even i’d support a prius for the poor fellow, maybe not a brand new one, but at least an old one.

    Well if even the far-right (you are still supporting the BNP right?) would support at least a Prius for 7 or so years of wrongful incarceration and torture then I guess you are going soft after all.
    Still you’ve a long way left to go to give up your hatred and intolerance of anything to left of the far-right… 😐

  43. PKD says:

    I know where you stand on Capital punishment PKD but I could not resist a friendly dig when you raised teh Iraq question again

    No worries Iain, I don’t think many will be missing Ali…except perhaps MK, KG and other extreme left/right types… 😉

  44. MK says:

    So that’s still sweet bugger all from you pkd, nothing at all for the innocent, just some weaseling and slithering, sheesh you really are a heartless bastard.

  45. JM says:

    Iain: but I could not resist a friendly dig

    A friendly dig at the cost of a mans life.

    Sorry. Regardless of our other disagreements I cannot agree. Execution is an abomination regardless of who’s involved.

    It’s obscene.

  46. Iain Hall says:

    JM

    Tell that to the many many Kurdish men women and children cold in their graves after a terrible death because of that evil man
    Tell that to the many many Iraqi’s killed by that man to curry favour with Saddam
    Tell that to the Iranian’s killed in the war by that man.
    Tell that to the marsh Arabs dispossessed of the very environment they lived in because of that man
    There are times when the crimes are so numberless and so deserving of a capital sanction that no “in principle” objection is enough reason for a scum bag to continue to draw breath.

  47. PKD says:

    Actually Iain, tell that to the families of those who’ve been executed wrongly by Governments for a capital offence it later turns out they didn’t commit.

    Tell me you’re fine with that, before you start getting all hudgmental about scumbugs who deserve to die…

  48. PKD says:

    Ooh, my favourite far-right nutjob MK is calling me ‘heartless’. I’m so upset…:)

    I see you are keeping the Islamaphobe, anti-immigrant hatred up over on your hate sites MK…:|

  49. Iain Hall says:

    hudgmental !!!!!!!!!!

    😆

    The families of the “wrongly executed” is a far smaller cohort than the families of those killed by Chemical Ali PKD
    which is sort of the point I was trying to make to JM

  50. PKD says:

    Really? Then how many innocent people is it acceptable for a State to execute in order to correctly execute evil people like ALi Iain?

    Give us a number…1,10,100?

  51. PKD says:

    No – I see you can’t give a straight number Iain.

    How unsurprising you are so eager to kill / execute, yet so unwilling to put a number as to how many innocents you would think it acceptable to be killed by mistake…

  52. Iain Hall says:

    PKD we both know it is a “how long is a piece of string” question and no answer would satisfy you.
    My preference is of course that NO innocent men are ever executed but then innocence is not an issue when the condemned has as much much blood on their hands as the now late Chemical Ali had on his now is it?

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