Iain Hall's SANDPIT

Home » Australian Politics » Brother Number One’s Government saying “come on down” to people smugglers.

Brother Number One’s Government saying “come on down” to people smugglers.

(Now Updated)

brother-number-one-border1

Mores invitations to people smugglers bought to you by Brother Number One

Hands up those of you who are just not taking note  any more when ever there is a news item about another load of illegal immigrants arriving in our waters in a leaky boat ?

The fishing boat north west Christmas Island. It is the 16th boat to enter Australian waters this year.
The fishing boat north west Christmas Island. It is the 16th boat to enter Australian waters this year.

A BOAT carrying 194 people, the largest number in eight years, has been intercepted by border protection 23 nautical miles north-west of Christmas Island.

The small wooden fishing boat, which defence sources said was “overcrowded”, had been tracked since Friday by Australian officials, after it left Indonesia.

On board were mostly men, understood to be of Afghan or Iraqi descent, who are now being processed on Christmas Island in immigration detention. No children were on board.

It is the 16th boat to arrive in Australian waters this year — during which 867 people have been intercepted by border protection.

[…]

Shadow immigration minister Sharman Stone said the latest arrival could be directly attributed to a softening in Australia’s immigration regime by the Rudd Government.

She said last week we had seen “another softening” — referring to proposed legislation to remove charges for people’s stay in immigration detention.

“No wonder we have seen a boat this big,” she said. “We know from asylum seekers who travel on these boats that the people smugglers watch the online Australian media, so they would have known what happened in Parliament and now they are saying ‘come on down’.”

Of course those seeking to come here illegally know what sort of reception that they are likely to get under the regime of Brother Number One and when they realise that they will not incur any penalty for a failed attempt there will obviously be an even bigger jump in the numbers. and speaking of the numbers we could reasonably expect that for everyone of the men on this latest boat that there may be ten or so others for whom they act as a vangaurd. Because you can be sure that as soon as they are able they will seek to have their families cone over under our” family reunion ” programs. So perhaps we should consider that the complement of a boat like this is really1940 rather then 194…

As I have said before prompt determination of their status and then an equally prompt repatriation and if they have  “lost” (disposed of more likely) their identifying documents, assume that they are not what they claim to be and repatriate them even quicker.

You know it makes sense

Cheers Comrades

8)

PS

I bet that even the Labor government is pleased that John Howard built the facility at Christmas Island even though they were delusional enough to believe that it would never be needed.

UPDATE

10,000 more on their way

Ray Dixon  will be delighted!

June 30, 2009

INDONESIAN authorities are bracing for a huge influx of boat people, anticipating as many as 10,000 asylum-seekers are waiting in Malaysia to transit through the archipelago and on to Australia.

This estimate was backed by a Malaysian group that deals with unauthorised immigrants. An Australian Government source warned of the potential for a similar influx to the thousands who began arriving in Australia from the late 1990s.

About 1500 asylum-seekers have arrived in Indonesia this year and registered for refugee status, almost all travelling by boat from Malaysia. Another 1500 are believed to have arrived and have not registered.

Indonesian police intelligence suggests between 7000 and 10,000 more people are waiting in Malaysia to make the journey once their passage is organised by people-smugglers.

“It could be 10,000,” said senior commissioner Eko Danianto, head of the people smuggling unit at the Indonesian National Police.

“They comprise a mix of nationalities, not only Afghans. There are also Sri Lankan, Myanamerese (Burmese), Iraqis.”

However an Australian academic, Dr Roslyn Richardson, of Charles Sturt University, has said asylum seekers know little about Australia before their arrival here.

Networks of people-smugglers service the 1 million Indonesian illegal workers who regularly travel to Malaysia by boat. The same networks also help arrange passage to Australia via Indonesia.

On Saturday, Malaysian authorities arrested 36 Afghans and six Pakistanis being smuggled to Australia via Indonesia. On Sunday, a boat carrying 194 asylum-seekers, mostly Sri Lankans, was intercepted near Christmas Island. Immigration sources said it was believed to have come from Malaysia. It was the biggest boatload of asylum-seekers to arrive in eight years.

“When they start getting big numbers through on a boat, they [people smugglers] get credibility and they get money. It becomes a virtuous cycle for them,” said one Australian immigration enforcement official.

The paragraph that I have emboldened in the quote above goes right to the nub of the problem, sadly my latte sipping friends just don’t get the bigger picture .

Also the same report says that the 194 people on the boat about which this  post was written are from Sri Lanka which should mean that they can be promptly repatriated to their country of origin as that conflict has now been resolved by the defeat of the LTTE.

Cheers again Comrades

😉


237 Comments

  1. Shawn Whelan says:

    The joke is on the immigrants.
    After the leftoids finish destroying the economy they will wish they stayed home.

  2. Ray Dixon says:

    Bring ’em on. We need the bigger population to drive our economy into overdrive as it comes out of the recession that wasn’t a recession. Apologies to the US, Shawn, I know it’s real over there but things are still going gangbusters in Oz.

  3. Alan Jackson says:

    I am with you Ray, this is a big country and we can fit a lot more in. I dont understand Iains fears about refugees who are trying to get out of hell hole countries, esp. since he was an immigrant himself who got out of a hell hole country 🙂 🙂

    As far as the US economy is concerned I would just echo the sentiments of Darrel Kerrigan and say “suffer in yer jocks”. You fcuked it up, now feel the pain. Maybe it will make some in America wake up to the fact that greed is not so good.

  4. Phill says:

    Ah nothing like a couple of sound bites about boat people to take the plebs minds off the real issues.Let me see, the demise of Talcum Turnbull comes to mind.

    Still the Liberals could perhaps live in hope they will find an e. mail connecting one of the boat people to Utegate he he.

  5. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain’s conveniently leaving the Turnbull imminent demise alone, Phill. Didn’t you know? According to Iain, Malcy has “consolidated the opposition” and given them a great chance of winning the next election.

    Hahahahaha, I can’t stop laughing!

    As for boat people, why was it OK to accept millions of them from the UK in the 50s & 60s but not a few thousand from Iraq & Afghanistan? It wouldn’t have anything to do with race & religion would it?

    No, I won’t go there – I don’t want to get anyone’s back up (just yet).

    OK, Iain et al would argue that the Poms “waited in a queue” (as all good Poms do). Hardly a queue, it was just an open floodgate – and a much bigger one than what he accuses Rudd of opening.

    And what about Fraser’s ‘open door’ policy on Vietnamese boat people. How did that damage us?

    History might prove yet that we’re better off attracting people who are looking to improve themselves and work hard like the Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese, Albanians, Iraqis & Afghanis do.

    But let’s not forget, we’re ‘British’ and therefore Brits were entitled to migrate here, even if they didn’t add anything to our economy & culture.

  6. Alan Jackson says:

    Yes Phill and Ray, if Iain wants to blog about “leaky boats” then he should do a post on the Libs front bench!! 🙂

  7. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain’s done so many of these boat people posts it’s about time the crew mutinied, hijacked the post and changed course for ‘Isle de Liberal Party’.

    Consider yourself overthrown from your own boat, Iain – this post’s about Malcy and we want to know when you think he’ll step down.

  8. Alan Jackson says:

    Ray is this a case of “blogger overboard”?

    Malcom Turnbull is a lame duck leader and even Iain the die hard Liberal supporter must surely acknowledge that!

  9. Ray Dixon says:

    I just received Sophie Mirabella’s ‘Winter Newsletter’ and, unlike the last one, it’s not full of spelling & grammar mistakes. Must be that new media bloke she hired, Anthony ‘can I grab your tits’ Scrinis. With him working for her maybe Sophie should make a run for Malcy’s job?

    Oh, I forgot, she sacked the groper. Hmm, maybe Julie ‘cross-eyed’ Bishop? How about little Christopher Pine(nuts)? Geezus, they don’t have much to pick from.

    I hear Tony ‘big ears’ Abbott’s trying to get his old comedy partner Peter ‘no balls’ Costello to change his mind and ‘save the party’. Wouldn’t that be fun?

  10. Phill says:

    Ray the difference was the Brits were bought here to man the Holden factories etc,and what’s more they could use spanners and stuff, te he.Imagine Australia with out immigration no, decent curries,Chinese, and Kebabs.Perish the thought.

    Australia’s national dish “Pie and Sauce” Yuk.

    Besides my missus is Dutch.Enough said, I bet that surprised some?

    I see Sky is making a lot of noise about “another boat” and Talculm’s demise is being treated like a side issue.

    I reckon Hockey will get a guernsey.They will probably lock him up with that effeminate dork Pyne, get him to speak proper so to speak he he.See if Pyne can make him a little less overbearing, and just a little less RUDE. FFS.

  11. Ray Dixon says:

    the difference was the Brits were bought here to man the Holden factories

    Try to stay mainly ‘on topic’, Phill, we’re talking about Malcy & the good ship Libs here. We wouldn’t want this post to revert back to its original point now, would we?

    On that matter though, I see the caption to the photo says, “It is the 16th boat to enter Australian waters this year. It’s also the 16th time Iain has written about it this year!

    Back to “the” topic: No, I reckon Costello will graciously un-resign and allow himself to be gifted the leadership … at great personal angst of course.

  12. Iain Hall says:

    Well I really think that no country can endure exponential growth forever, and despite what you chaps claim this is a very dry country and the idea that we can comfortably carry a much bigger population is bonkers. Besides the water there is the energy supply problem which under the Brother Number One “green regime’ is going to become even more fraught. I really don’t think that you guys have really thought this out at all.
    I also can’t understand why it is that when your party of choice holds the lodge that you are both so excited by what you see as disarray in the opposition, the heat has already gone out of the email business and the crisis that you so delight in exists only in your imaginations.

  13. Craigy says:

    Well Iain, perhaps we should deport all Englishmen who don’t contribute to the economy by way of a job. Then we can get more productive people from Asia to boost our economy….what do you think?

    As for the Libs and the neo-cons in the US….well what can I say, with idiots like Shawn supporting them it is no wonder they have made such a huge mess of just about everything.

    Shawn, you must be so pleased to see the world economy being saved by the leftist Chinese………Keep smiling all you conservative fools who have supported such a disaster.

  14. Alan Jackson says:

    Iain mate if I am imagining this crisis then so are most of the people who vote in opinion polls because Turnbulls numbers are now lower than a mole’s ballbag. I think you “protesteth too much” and that deep down you are very upset that the Libs are in a state of chaos, which is fair enough becuase we need strong opposition to hold Rudd and his mob to account.

  15. Alan Jackson says:

    P.S. As for the issue of “water”, well you lot up in the north east just had massive floods, so I say send most of the migrants to Qld and put them to work on water diversion projects plus they could build another hydro electric scheme and that would save your problems re: energy 🙂

  16. Ray Dixon says:

    the idea that we can comfortably carry a much bigger population is bonkers

    Iain, that statement reminds me of my home town of Bright. It’s amazing how many people choose to move here and no sooner they settle in they want to stop others from relocating here too.

    And guess what argument they’re using? Yeah, water supply.

    Heard of de-sal? It’s going to supply Australia’s needs pretty soon and there’s a pretty big ‘dam’ just off our shores to service it. And as for inland places like here, well the desal plants in the cities will take the pressure of our streams.

    Anyway, we digress from the main issue. Liberal leadership.

    Come on, Iain, this is a crisis for the Libs and this head-in-the-sand stuff is exactly what will see them decimated a-la the Vic Libs if they don’t get their act together.

    You might be looking at 15 years of Labor in Canberra, like we’re going to have down here in Victoria after Brumby brushes ‘Red Ted’ aside in 2010.

  17. Phill says:

    Turnbulls numbers are now lower than a mole’s ballbag.

    LOL he he. I aint heard that one before.It’s nearly as good as, he could parachute out of a snakes arse. Or as my mate Larry says “Limbo” How low can he go?.

    Indeed Ray I was just having a laugh with Hockey. Costello might be the go, I mean he was the worlds greatest treasurer he he te he.

    What about Pyne?Or as he is known among his friends as “Conan the Barbarian”

    You can’t make this shit up.

    And as for Wheler”s the” leftoids will ruin the economy”,well that little doozey should be framed.Well Hello!.Of course that giant among mere mortal men George Bush had sod all to do with it did he?.As an aside Madoff is probably a rabid commie bastard he he.

    Yep more boat people I say, however to be fair they should meet certain entry criteria, i.e. knowing how to spell “Labor Party” or “Greens” any consideration of the conservative cause immediately makes them “Persona Non Grata” Yea!!!

  18. Iain Hall says:

    Alan
    people are surveyed in opinion polls (they don’t vote) and if there are a thousand respondents it’s considered a big survey. So it gets down to sample size and how representative that is of the public opinion. The precise question can make a difference as can the methodology which is why so many are ignored or turn out to very seriously miss read what the people actually think.
    I am certainly not happy that the Libs have over played their hand on this issue, but I just do not think that it is a terminal mistake as you guys seem to insist that it is.
    Craigy
    I am part of a family and as a unit we are contributing to the future of the country by raising two very smart and talented members of the next generation. There is actually no more important job for the future of the nation than that.

  19. David says:

    Any chance th libs had, shot out the door, with Turn “buckle’s” gaff of monumental proportions.
    He will survive tho, after all who else is there ? That paragraph sounds monumentally familiar ?

    Ol Turnbuckle, must be thanking his lucky stars, for the timing of the three week break ?

    🙄

  20. Ray Dixon says:

    Well then Iain, if he’s left in the job I’d predict the Libs will be reduced to a rump at the next election. Rudd might even go early and why not?

  21. Iain Hall says:

    Its a six week break David …

  22. Alan Jackson says:

    Iain buddy I know how polls work, they are not always reliable but they are still a good guide. I notice that you were pretty up beat the anti-Bligh swing in the Qld polls before your last election and look how that turned out for you?? 🙂

    https://iainhall.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/i-know-whos-shoes-id-rather-be-in-right-now/

  23. Alan Jackson says:

    iain would you care to make a prediction:

    Who will lead the Coalition at the next election?

    Are you going for Turnbull or someone else?

  24. JM says:

    Another boat, another Iain Hall beatup.

  25. PKD says:

    Another boat, another Iain Hall beatup.

    Yeah, I have to wonder if Iain could get any more xenophobic – its almost as if Iain thinks there’s no such thing as asylum seekers, only economic migrants…

  26. Ray Dixon says:

    Yes PKD, and the irony is that you could only describe the UK migrants of the 50s & 60s as “economic” ones. Somehow that’s now a bad thing?

  27. David says:

    How much are we paying these clowns again ?

  28. PKD says:

    Heck I’m sure Mr Hall was an economic migrant too. Strange how he now seems to hate his fellow migrants.

    Perhaps Iain now thinks Oz is now full up and can’t fit any more people, regardless of their status?

  29. Ray Dixon says:

    It seems so, PKD. And let’s make one thing clear – these “clowns” who arrive here as boat people and who prove their refugee status and are admitted as citizens should never, ever, ever be entitled to the same benefits that decent, honest & hard working Aussies are. Sure, let them in, but let ’em starve!

  30. Phill says:

    That only would ever have happened under work choices.

    I would at least give them a job as a cleaner or somthin, that way they can get the luxuries like the poor do, like food and clothes.

  31. Shawn Whelan says:

    China isn’t going to save the world. It is a small economy compared to the USA or Europe. The leftoids think China is a great success. The majority of the people make a couple bucks a day and the real lucky ones have major luxuries like running water. To the lefties that is success.

    This economic downturn is far from over. The deadcat bounce is going to end and things are gonna take another tumble. The Western economies are really bankrupt and fading.

    The US is still losing jobs hand over fist while the government wastes trillions they don’t have. It’s going to end badly. Only a matter of when.

    Likely the only way the US can pay back their debt is big inflation. Australia will end up part of China if the Yanks don’t save you.(again)

  32. Ray Dixon says:

    I was being ironic about David’s “How much are we paying these clowns ” comment, Phill.

  33. Phill says:

    I did Ray, I am serious., flippant yes, but still serious. These people in the main are arriving on our shores because of policy’s of western governments.Mostly as you already know by the absolute madness of a one George Bush junior, and his poodle.The man of steel of course just did as he was told, by the poodle.

    Conservatives(Liberals) are trying to assuage their own guilt, for the fiasco that is on going war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and other policy’s that are killing innocent women and children, in many parts of the M.E. If they accept these refugees without reservation or conditions, it is tantamount to admitting their policy’s were suspect..Of which most sentient human beings agree, were/are a sham.

    We have a responsibility to look after these people, never mind the political reasons, but as caring human beings.There are some among them who no doubt have not came here to escape persecution and want a better life, so what? we are all the product of immigration illegal or no.

    My own family arrived on these fair shores when my fathers brother jumped ship in Melbourne after WW2. He came here for selfish reasons too, a better life.

    If some are found to be well off and not in trouble ,by all means send them back.

    As an aside the Tampa incident made me ashamed to be an Australian.We are supposed to be the good guys No?

  34. Iain Hall says:

    Really there is a fundamental difference between a country inviting people to come and join the party and gatecrashers just turning up and expecting unending hospitality. Australia was a very much emptier place then than it is now and the communication environment made it essential that new arrivals become part of the grater community,now with cheap telephony and equally cheap air travel commitment to this country is about expedience and is seemingly entirely optional under the concept of “multiculturalism”..
    Shawn is right about China. It is only “booming” because Europe and the US are buying their consumer goods , if he is also right about the dead cat bounce then we are all in deep do do’s and no amount of immigration is going to help and all that it will do in lengthen the unemployment lines.
    Phill

    Conservatives(Liberals) are trying to assuage their own guilt, for the fiasco that is on going war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and other policy’s that are killing innocent women and children, in many parts of the M.E. If they accept these refugees without reservation or conditions, it is tantamount to admitting their policy’s were suspect..Of which most sentient human beings agree, were/are a sham.

    Nah Its you lefties that trade on guilt the reality is that your mob whine constantly about opposing tyrants and yet you baulk at the reality that to do so requires the shedding of blood and the destruction of despotic regimes. Sounds like you think that the Taliban and Saddam were lovely folks who should have remained in power forever.
    PKD
    My family came here primarily because my dad hated the cold weather of mother England, a better life in his terms was more sunshine and less cold and miserable rain. Which is why we came to Queensland rather than Sydney or Melbourne. Economic considerations had very little to do with it at all.
    JM
    Another Boat and another denial of reality from JM 😉

  35. Craigy says:

    “I am part of a family and as a unit we are contributing to the future of the country by raising two very smart and talented members of the next generation.”

    Ah yes Iain’s traditional family unit – a man married to a woman, with the man going to work and the woman at home raising the kids and looking after the home duties……you know Iain, the TRADITIONAL family that you always go on about in your homophobic rants….

    Oh, what’s that you say….times have changed?

    Boy it is fun to watch you and Shawn twist and turn as you try to find something -anything good in the mess your side has made of things.

    I actually feel sorry for the Libs…deeply sorry…. (Smirk)

    As for boat arrivals – I think most of the comments here have exposed Iain’s hypocracy with ease.

    Iain’s family came here for better weather and he has the gall to suggest that those escaping war and poverty should be locked up then sent back to where they came from, if they don’t have the right papers. Your humanity is shining through yet again mate!

  36. Alan Jackson says:

    Nah Its you lefties that trade on guilt the reality is that your mob whine constantly about opposing tyrants and yet you baulk at the reality that to do so requires the shedding of blood and the destruction of despotic regimes. Sounds like you think that the Taliban and Saddam were lovely folks who should have remained in power forever.

    Yeah Iain sure thing and why is it then that illegal immigrants from Iraq and Afghanistan have actually INCREASED since those places were “saved” by your mates Bush, bLair and Howard? If these places are such wonderful places to live now then why the hell do 10,000 people want to come to Australia? An answer on this would be appreciated.

    You remind me of ole Joe (I think his real name is Guiseppie) at my local footy club, his family came out here in the 50s with bugger all, now he spends his time telling anyone who will listen that Aust should close its borders and keep out the nips, towelheads, currymunchers, etc. And when someone gets sick of his shite and reminds him of how his family got here in the 50s, old Joe says “But things were different then!” Yeah they sure were, only the whites were racist 😉 😉 😉

  37. Phill says:

    Iain for your information 1. I am an x digger, yes a real one and not something out of my imagination.2. My brother is a decorated Vietnam vet, yes a real one, again not something out of his imagination or mine.3. My father was at the D Day landings and was wounded.My youngest son is a serving soldier.There is a trend forming here do you see it?

    So let us have none of this “us lefty’s baulk at shedding blood” fighting tyrants nonsense.

    I could give a flying root about Saddam Hussein, and hanging the homicidal maniac was probably letting him off lightly, however, his crimes were for the people of Iraq to sort out., after all he was their homicidal maniac not ours. Bombing the bejesus out of Iraq and the killing of thousands of women and children with the added persecution of economic sanctions, under the pretence of “Weapons of mass destruction” was and is dismissed as a fantasy, apart from the ones the west sold him, mostly chemicals.I believe.

    If the west was serious about getting rid of all the tyrants of the world with the best of intentions, there is a veritable shit load of them out there.North Korea comes to mind, when are we going to replace the man with the funny hairdo?But true to form, we only get rid of the ones that suit our economic agenda.To deny this salient fact, borders on being delusional.

  38. Ray Dixon says:

    UPDATE
    10,000 more on their way
    Ray Dixon will be delighted!

    Yep.

  39. Alan Jackson says:

    And just think….. in another 40 yrs each of these 10,000 “new Australians” will have their own web site where they will post “10,000 more on their way”!!

    😉

  40. Alan Jackson says:

    Phil good on you mate, my old man was a tough old bastard, he was a veteran of Tobruk, came home in 43 then they shipped him off to fight the Japs in steamy PNG. He was also a Labor voter all his life, a few years after the war he took an ALP “how to vote card” on his way into vote and some young Lib helper saw this and shouted to my old man that he was a “commie so-and-so”. I reckon the young Lib probably still has the bruises.

  41. Ray Dixon says:

    Really there is a fundamental difference between a country inviting people to come and join the party and gatecrashers just turning up and expecting unending hospitality. Australia was a very much emptier place then than it is now

    There would be a “fundamental difference”, Iain, if Australia was a private “party”. Last time I checked we were part of the free world and, as such, accepting immigrants & asylum seekers is an obligation, regardless of how “full” you think it might be with just 21 million people.

    It sounds like these latest arrivals may have better cause to be here than your family did. I don’t think they’ve come here because of the weather.

    Have you ever heard of ’cause & effect’? It’s simple: No wars = no one trying to flee their homelands.

  42. A 194 people on one boat, that is crazy, unless they were coming on a cruise ship. WOW. That is all I can say.

  43. David says:

    “I was being ironic about David’s “How much are we paying these clowns ” comment, Phill.”

    Don’t get the irony Ray ?

    I was talking about the politicians, each one, on an average of $1k a week, and there are how many ? 200 odd, if you include both houses, their secretaries, their cars, their air travel, their massive superannuation schemes, et al ?

    Yet, how have they been spending the last week before a three week hiatus, hiding under their electoral desks ?

    Arguing about an (alleged) forged email. Hmmm…….

    In so far as the immigration debate, it has all been said on these pages before. Iain’s family, as mine did, and probably most others here, arrived, maybe not with wealth in monetary terms, but wealth in skills. They filled the holes that were created, when there was a massive increase in the building of our infrastructure after ww2. So where is the problem again ? It is not racism, but accepting copious amounts of UNSKILLED boat people is hardly the way to go.

    I don’t see the US, or UK, or anyone else for that matter, opening it’s doors to boat people, with such abandon ?

    Before you say it, it’s not racism, it’s economic common sense !

  44. David says:

    Damm, did it again, SIX week hiatus.
    That makes it worse !
    🙄

  45. Alan Jackson says:

    It is not racism, but accepting copious amounts of UNSKILLED boat people is hardly the way to go.

    And how do you know that of all those coming on these boats are UNSKILLED Mister Davidson? Has the Royal Aust Navy flown you to Christmas Island to interview them and collect their CVs??? No, thought not.

    Also just because parliament isn’t sitting doesn’t mean that MPs do bugger all, David, or are you one of these “politicians are lazy XXXXXX” brigade? Sure they are paid well and they get good superannuation but if they didn’t then who the hell would want to be one? “You pay peanuts you get monkeys” mate and no sure about you but I don’t what no monkey running the country.

  46. Alan Jackson says:

    “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” What does this mean?

  47. Ray Dixon says:

    Er, OK David, you were talking about politicians not asylum seekers. It didn’t seem in context.

    Anyway, on what basis do you say the current immigrants and/or asylum seekers have less skills than all other immigrants we had in the past.

    As for building infrastructure, we’re building more now than ever and, yes, there is a shortage of labour, skilled & unskilled.

    You say it’s not racism on your part but you and Iain constantly refer to te origins of these people. I say you would not be making these remarks if it were boat loads of lily white pommies.

  48. Phill says:

    Alan, I forgot to mention my dads brother was in Changi for three years, a place where the pommy officers got three changes of clean clothes a day, mainly from stealing them from the lower ranks, and that is a fact.
    There was an excellent special on the A.B.C. radio some time ago called “Australians at war” it gave the information chapter and verse.

    But I digress.

    Yes Alan politics!My old man’s first job was on the London docks back in the late twenties, the foreman carried a pick handle, and men were treated like bloody pack mules.

    I am as I have said previously nearly sixty, and I can remember all the things we all now take for granted being so different. even back in the start of the sixties, when workers compensation wasn’t paid by the employer, but by the insurance company’s.The fact was, some men after having bad accidents were waiting up to six months to get their wages.

    I remember when the employers said the 40 hr week would be the end of the world as we know it.The A.M.A.’s visceral hatred of socialised medicine, and the kicker was, the first three months after Medibank was introduced, hundreds of them got caught fleecing it.

    What’s all this got to do with boat people? Plenty, most conservatives know the price of everything and the value of nothing.Their memory is as about as reliable as to why the boat people are coming here, as to why we all enjoy a life style that is the envy of the world.Not because of conservative politics, which would still see children working in mines, but because the left wing of the Labor Party and the union movement have had to fight the injustice that permeates conservative ideology.

    That very ideology is why the boats are arriving.

  49. David says:

    I am talking about, after ww2 immigrants in this country, were builders, farmers, professionals et al, that filled positions available in this country. I remember friends that emigrated here, during that period, that showed me the letters, that accompanied their visa apps. They had to have a job organised, and letters from employers, stating that these jobs were going to last, at least three years. They had vast training, and experience, in their own countries, and more importantly, were on the “needed list”. The situation is not too different from today. I wonder, for example, if they tried to emigrate to Oz now, and applied using their existing skill base, as a grounding for that app, how far that app would proceed, before being rejected ? I think not a long time.

    How many immigrants were allowed into the country to build, for example, the Snowy Scheme ? That is just one. Humanitarian concerns aside, how many Vietnamese refugees brought needed skills with them, when they arrived. Been down Bridge St in Richmond lately ? These were genuine refugees, for sure, but didn’t solve their problems much did it ? The fastest way to stop these “voyages of death”, is for the UN to move into the countries concerned, and boot out the tyrants that, with their greed, and terror campaigns (against their own people), and let the people begin to control their own destinies. After all, that is what they want more than anything, hence the reason why they risk all, by attempting to come here ?

  50. Ray Dixon says:

    David, your Vietnamese example is absurd. What’s wrong with Vietnamese? Fraser was right to let them in and, by the way, the United Nations, Australia and the US weren’t exactly on the right side in that little conflict, were they? We were the ones supporting the corrupt South.

    Geezus, you’re creating arguments out of thin air. The fact is there is a current flow of asylum seekers and we are going to cop a few. But they ARE processed and checked and they DO ultimately asimmilate.

    Your whole argument breaks down because you cannot point to any examples of how any type of immigration has damaged Australia.

    It’s made it a better place and it will continue to do so.

  51. Phill says:

    David thousands of displaced people were let into Australia after WW2, The whole railway system in W.A. was built on the backs of displaced refugees. Not all 10 pound tourists had skills that were required in Oz. The Bernardo’s and other organisation’s sent thousands of kids here who went to school they had nothing to offer Oz except populating it.

  52. Iain Hall says:

    Alan I told you the other week that the use of obscenities , even deliberately misspelled ones would trip the spam filter and automatically put comments into moderation.
    I will get it out and edit it to remove the offending words

  53. Ray Dixon says:

    Push the right buttons, Phill, and David will go off with his chest beating & huffy-puffy stuff about patriotism and how immigrants live in ghettos.

    He’s done it before and then blamed me for suggesting his reasoning is race based.

    But I can’t see any other base to his anti boat people stance. Nor to Iain’s.

  54. Alan Jackson says:

    OK thanks Iain, I thought you meant that we werent allowed to swear at each other, but that was Ray Dixons and Phills fault anyway 🙂 But I will stop swearing just for you matey.

    David must vote for Pauline Hanson I reckon, he is starting to sound like her!!

  55. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    You say it’s not racism on your part but you and Iain constantly refer to te origins of these people. I say you would not be making these remarks if it were boat loads of lily white pommies.

    Apart from “throw the door open wider” enthusiasts like your self Ray most people are willing to accept “asylum seekers” on the basis of how genuine their claims of persecution actually are, so it is entirely appropriate to consider just where these people are coming from and what the circumstances in their homeland actually is. Which is why I make special note of the fact that this latest batch are apparently from Sri Lanka, a place where the long running civil war is actually over and the end of that war actually ends the validity of claims of persecution.
    Now while you are quick to imply racism in this argument the reality is as I have suggested one of how big a population this country can carry environmentally and how big a population can be gainfully supported by the economy. You seem to be a believer in a the idea that our economy and our population can keep expanding forever. There has to come a point of equilibrium between the carrying capacity of the environment and the population of the country. Personally I think that if this country does “need” a bigger population then we should grow those new Australians ourselves and let the population grow more gentle manner rather than rush madly to expand the numbers to slake the greed of those who only think with a very short sighted view of the world.

  56. Ray Dixon says:

    Ray & Phill have ‘kissed and made up’. Eww, shite, perish the thought!

  57. Phill says:

    Well Ray , for mine we are the cause of them coming, so we have to put it right.At the risk of repeating myself, the “Gung Ho” merchants who were all for the wars that is the cause of this head ache, don’t believe it was the cause of the problem, hence they must show a united indifference to it all.

  58. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain, you are arguing for “sending them all back”. You can’t have it both ways and claim that you now support accepting asylum seekers provided they are genuine.

    The fact is they are assessed so how can YOU claim to know the ones we do let in are not genuine?

    Don’t come the “we can’t take more people” argument either – that’s a furphy. You cannot conduct a humane refugee policy based on those grounds, not when we’re only talking thousands. I reckon it would need to be 50 times worse than it is now before you could claim that we just can’t take any more.

  59. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    Iain, you are arguing for “sending them all back”. You can’t have it both ways and claim that you now support accepting asylum seekers provided they are genuine.

    Ray I have previously argued that the UN definition of an “refugee” is too broad and as a result we have people using it as a ticket in to the developed countries of the world. It just seems to me that there are too many people who think entirely without any big picture thinking on this issue. Now with a tougher definition of what a “real refugee” actually is I am happy to support this country doing its bit and providing temporary refuge for those in that kind of need. Immigration is however, a different matter.

    The fact is they are assessed so how can YOU claim to know the ones we do let in are not genuine?

    Well I am talking about how these people are perceived and that is something that we are all entitled to opine on.

    Don’t come the “we can’t take more people” argument either – that’s a furphy. You cannot conduct a humane refugee policy based on those grounds, not when we’re only talking thousands. I reckon it would need to be 50 times worse than it is now before you could claim that we just can’t take any more.

    I am not making that precise argument Ray but I am saying that we have to consider the question sooner or later, especially under the Greenie regime that wants to restrict our consumption of energy. Now part of that will require less energy used by each individual but we will be obliged to consider how many individuals can comfortably live on the resources available . It is justr not an issue that can be ignored forever .
    Oh and there is no way in the world that this country could support 1000 million people

  60. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain, that is far too long-winded. It’s a simple issue of accepting refugees or not. You are blaming Rudd for what is a normal occurrence. It happened under Howard too. The difference being Howard was an a-hole and put them in concentration camps. Because the little prick is a racist and Rudd is not. That’s the only difference between a policy you support and the present one.

  61. Iain Hall says:

    You are avoiding the bigger issues here and I disagree with your distillation of the of situation

  62. Ray Dixon says:

    You’re making it a bigger issue than it is, Iain. As I said, if it were 50 times worse then yes, it’d be a major problem. Obviously there’s a limit to how many refugees we can take but you make out that it’s already some kind of major problem – well just how?

    Sorry Iain, it’s your blog and you can post what you like, but putting up the same sort of crap every time a boat arrives suggests you just don’t want any of these people from certain countries of certain ethnicity – full stop.

    Enough said from me.

  63. David says:

    My argument was/is purely to show the way normal immigration schemes run, and have run since the end of ww2. So where’s your criticism of them ? Strangely missing ?

    You pair of “goody two shoes” are just trying to appear politically correct.

    It has nothing to do with race, it’s economics.

  64. Iain Hall says:

    It has nothing to do with race, it’s economics.

    Precisely David which is why I am posing the questions about population size for this country and why I want to explore how we work out what is a sustainable number, and then how can we create and maintain an economy that is not predicated on unending expansion.

  65. PKD says:

    Face it Iain – you’re an economic migrant who can’t stand the thought of other economic migrants coming after you and wanting to share in your good fortune.

    Worse – you want to club genuine asylum seekers in with economic migrants (sending all the Sri Lankans back will sentence some of them to a death warrant given their previous status in the LTTE for example) because heck its easier to wash your hands of them that way and pretend that their’s only economic migrants.

    Its like the homeless, I’m sure you think they all have homes to go to really and their just putting it on. How else do you explain your ‘send ’em all back’ xenophobia?

  66. Iain Hall says:

    PKD

    Face it Iain – you’re an economic migrant who can’t stand the thought of other economic migrants coming after you and wanting to share in your good fortune.

    🙄 If that was my position I would say so, as I have not argued from that point of view you are wrong

    Worse – you want to club genuine asylum seekers in with economic migrants (sending all the Sri Lankans back will sentence some of them to a death warrant given their previous status in the LTTE for example) because heck its easier to wash your hands of them that way and pretend that their’s only economic migrants.

    Have you proof read this sentence? There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that any of the latest arrivals have anything to do with the LTTE or that the Sri Lanka government want to risk destroying the hard won peace by seeking reprisals or vengeance on the Tamils, most of whom are probably quite happy that the horrid war there is over,

    Its like the homeless, I’m sure you think they all have homes to go to really and their just putting it on. How else do you explain your ’send ‘em all back’ xenophobia?

    Typically you are trying to change the subject My opinions about the homeless are a topic for another day.

  67. David says:

    PKD and gang,

    There is nothing worse, than seeing genuine refugees suffer, anywhere. I agree. BUT

    Organisations such as World Vision, have been “trotting up” staged pictures of starving kids for fifty plus years.

    To help assist in the argument, how long is the immigration waiting list, to get into Australia you guys ?

    For years, people who have skills, that we supposedly need, still cannot enter the country via immigration, due to supposed economic downturns etc. These are people with skills, and money. So your argument of “no room”:, being “refugee specific” becomes mute doesn’t it ? If there is no room for large skilled migrant intakes, and we are taking in our share under international agreements of refugees, it is pretty tough to argue that we should open the doors for everybody indiscriminently, as you suggest ?

  68. David says:

    Has anyone thought, that the reason why death sentences may remain in force, for former members of the LTTE, may be due to the fact, that they went around killing and bombing their supposed enemy ? Shit, (sorry Iain), it would be like giving Bin Laden a reprieve, and a new condo in New York ?
    Is that what you are advocating ?

  69. PKD says:

    Sri Lanka government want to risk destroying the hard won peace by seeking reprisals or vengeance on the Tamils, most of whom are probably quite happy that the horrid war there is over,

    Umm, human rights are a current issue in Sri Lanka – and you don’t have to be a Tamil – just opposed to the Govt.

    If that was my position I would say so, as I have not argued from that point of view you are wrong

    So are you denying that you migrated to Aus and worked here? Even if you retired straight away, you were (and are) still enjoying the cheaper cost of living and as such can be considered an economic migrant.

    IF not, how do you class your entry to Aus? Not as an asylum seeker surely! (Although you could argue coming here to support a winning Ashes team legitimately I believe!).

  70. PKD says:

    *egad! Fixed the typos!*

    DD,
    You can get permanent reisdency before entering Aus, provided you score about 120 ( +/- a few depending of the specific entry type) on the points scoring system – 60 of which you get for most of the jobs on the SOL list. Those are the ‘in demand’ jobs you are talking about DD.

    Interestingly, (and those who hate multi-culturalism will barf at this,) you get 10 points for every foreign language you speak – and that language list is pretty damn long!

    that the reason why death sentences may remain in force, for former members of the LTTE, may be due to the fact, that they went around killing and bombing their supposed enemy ? Shit, (sorry Iain), it would be like giving Bin Laden a reprieve, and a new condo in New York ?

    Worked for the IRA didn’t it? Yesterdays murderers and terrorists are todays politicians…:(

  71. PKD says:

    BTW – I do utterly agree with you DD that the argument of there being ‘no room’ left in Aus is baseless and without any evidence to support it whatsover…but thats a minor sort of detail that’s never stopped Iain and others opposed to any asylum seekers and immigrants from claiming it before!

  72. David says:

    No argument from me there PKD.
    A true peace has to start somewhere doesn’t it ?

    As for the foreign language thing, I agree. Being ex RAAF, upon enlistment, being in my thirties, they were not interested, until the questions about my language skills made their way to the top of the list. Having learned four, they virtually grabbed me by the scruff of the neck, and next think I know, I was at RAAF Langs ! It is a highly prized skill, especially these days in the new tech age, when business is being completed, live, in overseas, competitive markets ?

    Again, the argument, they are “hitting the boats”, How do we draw the line, between wanted immigration, and fulfilling our humanitarian requirements under the UN ? How do we decide the ratio, when whoever tries, will be hounded, and criticised into hiding, for making that decision ?

  73. PKD says:

    4 languages – wow!

    I’m guessing they’d be English, French, German…and Australian??? 😉

  74. PKD says:

    Back OT, personally I think we do need a way of better determining asylum seekers from the economic migrants. Its currently excruciatingly painful not to mention expensive and time consuming to verify their stories. I suggest putting them through a lie detector test to ascertain the ones claiming asylum truthfully with those lying about their status. Not perfect but an improvement on the existing certainly – maybe even Iain can go for that?

  75. Ray Dixon says:

    David & Iain, the level of asylum seekers arriving in Australia is NOT posing any threat to (a) those waiting for immigration via normal means (b) Australia’s ability to cope with the extra numbers.

    You two provide no proof whatsoever that the present situation is actually a net problem to this country.

    Until and unless it reaches those proportions (and it’d need to expand exponentially to do that) I suggest you both pull your xenophobic heads in.

    That is all.

    (Iain, somehow this comment was under another topic – I’ve no idea how that happened).

  76. David says:

    Don’t know Ray, have no idea. I don’t think anyone else has either, hence why the debate is such “a hotty” I suppose ?

    PKD
    French, Russian, Japanese, Pidgin, and bloody shithouse English ? 🙂

    One of the benefits, of being a ham radio freak since early teens I guess ?

    As for being a xenophobe ? I don’t think I am. I am just saying that the rules should be the same for all. Refugees, and legal immigrants alike. With our economy becoming more like a world wide one, language skills are going to be a prerequisite for any job of the future. As such, it won’t matter what country you live in will it ? It’s happening now. With the internet, you can log in to a workplace anywhere in the world, do a day’s work, and log off again, without even leaving home ?

    As for boats, and illegal arrivals, all I am saying is that the process has to be defined, and enforced, WHATEVER that process turns out to be. If we are to let them in, then fine, let them in. Consistency is what we need, not continual political point scoring on people’s lives. Australia has always been a soft touch for a sob story. Not that is such a bad thing, but why is everyone so frightened of drawing the inevitable line, that needs to be drawn ????????

  77. Ray Dixon says:

    Don’t know what, David? The topic is only a “hottie” because xenophobes are making it one. And no, you cannot have the same rules for refugees that you have for normal immigrants. Otherwise you’d have no normal immigrants or no refugees – geddit?

  78. David says:

    That’s exactly my point Ray.
    An even playing field ?

    It depends on the economy. If, at the time, only tradespeople are required, what is wrong with allowing non qualified people to wait ? After all, that is what is happening elsewhere in the world ? That is what happened before the onslaught of “refugees”. In the late fifties, right up to the early seventies, the situation was the other way around, unskilled labour came through the gates.

    As to the immigration debate, you and I have logged heads over this issue for some time, so no need to regurgitate it again ?

  79. Ray Dixon says:

    That’s exactly my point

    Huh? You want no immigrants or refugees, full stop? Geezus I think I’ll go and talk to the dogs – they make more sense, David.

  80. Iain Hall says:

    PKD
    I agree with you that the central problem with all of these boat arrivals is testing their bonafides and maybe some sort of lie detector testing would be useful however in Australian law such testing has never been accepted as part of any process, (mores the pity) so I expect that activist lawyers would go bonkers. But thanks for finally realising that the problem is one of sorting the genuine “refugees” from those who claim that status as a way to get around this country’s immigration laws.

  81. Ray Dixon says:

    Well Iain, you might be making some ground on this and a lot of other issues.

    The Lefties are too pre-occupied with Twitter to even attend their own blogs let alone comment elsewhere, which has left you and the other ‘conservatives’ with all the running.

    I feel deserted. Thank Christ for PKD, Alan & Phill !!!

  82. Ray Dixon says:

    Oh, and Craigy.

  83. David says:

    “Huh? You want no immigrants or refugees, full stop? Geezus I think I’ll go and talk to the dogs – they make more sense, David.”

    Maybe you should Ray, cos that is not what I said. Read my post again ? Get them to explain it to you ?

    “It depends on the economy. If, at the time, only tradespeople are required, what is wrong …..et al.”

    This has been the immigration policy in Australia, and quite honestly, every western country in the world for the last fifty or so years, so nothing new. The only new card in the deck, has been the advent of “the refugee”. How has this come about you may ask. Could it be, that for some, there is no hope of legally emigrating here ?

    The masters of these death voyages, have been playing on Australia, being a “soft touch” for years. Ever since the first Vietnamese showed up, after the fall of Saigon. They were legit refugees, so before you say it, no argument there.

    No where have I said, that we should end immigration, or even once produced the race card. NO WHERE !

    “you cannot have the same rules for refugees that you have for normal immigrants. Otherwise you’d have no normal immigrants or no refugees – geddit?”

    That’s crap Ray.

    Where have I said that, or even suggested that ?
    You are implying by the above statement, that if the rules were the same for refugees, as they were for immigrants, there would be no immigration, well, hmm, what is happening now then ? No immigration ? That’s far fetched, and un researched dribble.

    The “minions on the hill”, have reassured us many times, that accepting refugees into this country, has had no effect on normal influx of legit immigrants. I am yet to be convinced of that. In fact, it has made it more difficult for the legit arrivals. Australia’s economy can only absorb a finite amount of new arrivals at any one time. Before you say it, there is valid evidence out there, that with this countries massive resources we should be able to sustain a population of 100m plus (forget the figure quoted, but am certain someone will remind me ? 🙂 ). BUT NOT ALL AT ONCE !

    All I am saying is that, the first sign of the Australian government (of both persuasions), showed some balls, and escorted a couple of these vessels back to Indonesia, I think this hideous trade would go from a torrent, to a trickle.

    “Again, the argument, they are “hitting the boats”, How do we draw the line, between wanted immigration, and fulfilling our humanitarian requirements under the UN ? How do we decide the ratio, when whoever tries, will be hounded, and criticised into hiding, for making that decision ?”

    This is still the valid question that needs answering, and yet no one wants to have a crack at it. Perhaps, in the fear of not appearing “politically correct” or worse still “a racist” ? Neither has anything to do with it. They are not valid arguments in this debate. It comes down strictly to economics.

  84. David says:

    Thanks Iain.
    Every time I try to do the highlight of quotes, in WordPress, it puts the entire comment into moderation, as if I am a new user. Any tips ?

    Thanks again, and the 100 looks good ?

  85. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    Well Iain, you might be making some ground on this and a lot of other issues.

    The Lefties are too pre-occupied with Twitter to even attend their own blogs let alone comment elsewhere, which has left you and the other ‘conservatives’ with all the running.

    I feel deserted. Thank Christ for PKD, Alan & Phill !!!

    I think that Twitter is absolutely stupid, what is next? A system based on 14 characters? I too have have noticed the significant decline in the lefty blogs where posts are getting less frequent and even those that do make it into public view seem rather half hearted. Blame can probably be directed at the SMS culture and a whole swag of people who are addicted to their mobile phones.

    Craigy

    Nice conspiracy theory although I’m not sure what Christmas and Easter (the symbolic acts that nutters celebrate that I think your referring to) have to do with a plane crash.

    No conspiracy at all but when two crashes each occur on the first day of two subsequent months it is unusual enough to comment on, now if there is another crash on August 1 then it would be time to imply some sort of conspiracy.

    I think the ‘fly by wire’ nature of these new aircraft might be the problem.

    Well I said that after the last crash

    Sad for the French that planes that they build are crashing with mainly French citizens on board.

    why does this matter to you?

    Now repeat after me Iain…..

    ‘I will not listen to the ignorant spin of the Bolta….’

    No why don’t you give up on the “bolta shtick” Craigy it is no longer even vaguely funny , or even appropriate to the topic.

    ‘Scientists are scientists and they are not all Greenies’….say it again…..’Scientists are scientists not all greenies’…..

    Repeat 10 times each hour till it sinks in…..

    I am talking about economics as much as anything here and the way that increasing fuel costs are going to change the way that people travel in this post so how about you think about that for a while before you recycle the same clichés that you have over used in the past?

  86. Iain Hall says:

    what you need to use is the html code “blockquote” with the usual < and </ and it works a treat when you are considering a detailed response to a longer comment.
    Yeah 100 is looking possible again 🙂

  87. David says:

    Sorry mate, maybe a bit thick but ?

    What is the above in english ?
    🙄

  88. Iain Hall says:

    when you want to quote a section of any thing cut and paste your quote into the dialogue box and prefix it with “<blockquote and at the end of the quote you put </blockquote each has to have the opposite arrow at the end but (every time I type it into this comment WordPress reads it as a prompt an it disappears) and the quote will be indented and in some templates it will be marked with big quotation marks as well.
    Is that clear?
    also to embolden you use <b and </b
    for Italics <i and </i
    once again closing each prompt with the opposite arrow

  89. Phill says:

    What can be further said on the matter?The fact is, we have a responsibility to accept these people.To use one of Iain’s and others conservative excuse for the past tragedy’s, the “world has changed”If you don’t accept we are the reason they are coming here what is the point?

    For those who say the wars that have been launched and prosecuted by the west on these countries for other than economic/foreign policy agendas apart from the possible exception of Afghanistan, are not only at best disingenuous, and at worse, bordering on the barking mad.

    Besides, this is nothing new..Contrary to what David has said, we have been bringing refugees here since the aftermath of WW2.I personally know some who were displaced from Latvia, as I ‘ve previously said, charity groups like Dr Barnado’s sent kids here in their thousands, of course it is to be noted they were told the same lies then, as are being told now about the stolen generation. It was as real then as it is now. But moving on.

    It is a little known fact, that a large part of Western Australia was chosen as a possible site for the Jewish Diaspora, after the holocaust.The same racists were jumping up and down then about the possible foreign invasion.

    Of course what the right has done, and this is a left and right issue, is to be clever in “scaring the horses” by connecting these poor soul’s, from anything to possible terrorist organisations, to carrying the bubonic plague. Because! they just don’t want them here. I loved it at the time of John Howards “We will decide who comes to Australia” making out, the average Joe num nuts had a say. What this was all about was hiding behind a veil of guilt, for what the west has done to some of these people, by prosecuting their phoney wars on them.

    Well folks you people can have your say, it wont change jack shit, they are coming and we are going to accept them.Not because of any other reason more complicated than, we have a moral obligation to do so.

    If you see some poor sod on the street starving or in trouble, and you don’t do something, you don’t have the right of claiming you are a member of the human race, the indifference to refugees is no different.

    End of transmission and going clear________________

  90. David says:

    Again, I have no argument with what you are saying Phill, none at all. Legit refugees, no problem. You are correct in saying that we have accepted refugees from all over the place. That was how this country first started if you think about it, albeit “forced displacement” ?

    But, this is where the line is being blurred. Some of the latest arrivals have not been proven as being legit political refugees have they ? There are some, that are “economic refugees”.

    That’s the problem ? How do we distinguish them ? On the one hand, we must accept political refugees, and I am in whole hearted agreement with that policy. On the other hand, are the queue jumpers. Those simply getting done up in old rags, hiring a boat in Indonesia, and making their way here, under the guise of political refugees, simply because they don’t like the way their country is progressing, and want a better life for their children. When it comes down to it, who doesn’t ?

    How do we balance that ?

  91. Iain Hall says:

    Sent you an email about HTML David 🙂

  92. Iain Hall says:

    Phill

    Well folks you people can have your say, it wont change jack shit, they are coming and we are going to accept them.Not because of any other reason more complicated than, we have a moral obligation to do so.

    I don’t buy your unending obligation claims, and when it comes to guilt you are projecting your own feelings here, not describing the conservative view at all Phill. Quite simply there has to be a limit, deciding where to draw the line is the real issue.

    If you see some poor sod on the street starving or in trouble, and you don’t do something, you don’t have the right of claiming you are a member of the human race, the indifference to refugees is no different.

    There are some people who spend their whole lives using up the compassion of others, repeatedly calling upon help and never being responsible for themselves or their own situation, and frankly there are times when letting someone in a bit strife work it out themselves is a good thing.Its called “tough love”.

  93. Ray Dixon says:

    How do we distinguish them ?

    We don’t, the Government does. And so far it seems to be working. You don’t make any sense at all on this David and neither does Iain. It’s a simple matter: There is no real problem for Australia in handling the current influx and you are both blowing it out of proportion.

    I repeat, point to the problems this has caused us. Point to any problems accepting refugees has ever caused us. There aren’t any.

    You’re both complaining because you claim this trickle will become a torrent. But you have to allow the Govt to deal with it. You’ve not laid a glove on the Govt’s handling yet so put away the limp lettuces and wait until (and if) it becomes a real problem and then judge the Govt on how they handle that.

    Honestly Iain, this is flogging a dead horse and it’s all been said before.

  94. David says:

    That’s the problem Ray.
    The government is not handling it, of either persuasion.
    Howard stuck his head in the sand, as is King Kev.

    You think I am over reacting, by saying that there is an onslaught coming. Yep, you betcha ! Maybe an over reaction, sure, will admit to that. We will all have to wait and see who is right I guess ?

  95. Ray Dixon says:

    That’s the problem Ray.

    The only “problem” you’re highlighting is the one in your own mind. It’s time to put up or shut up, David.

    We will all have to wait and see who is right I guess ?

    Yes, that’s a good idea.

  96. David says:

    I see your “nasty streak” is flaring again.

    I have put up, at least with the information that is out there, and if you can’t hold the argument, or criticise it, without insults, then take your minutia, and inflict it on someone else.

    To use your phraseology, put your head back in the sand, and let the grown ups deal with the problems that this country is about to face.

  97. Ray Dixon says:

    What’s “nasty” about asking you to ‘put up or shut up’, David? It’s a common saying in debates – in polite debates.

    Don’t come the all offended party with me, you’re just deflecting from the fact that you CANNOT point to any specific problems this influx, or any other influx, of refugees has caused to the economy or social well being of Australia.

    I’ll say it again: you are claiming it’s a “problem”, so detail the problems, prove them – ie put up or shut up.

    And if you can’t handle that kind of debate you shouldn’t even bother commenting.

  98. David says:

    If that’s polite, hmm, who taught you etiquette ? Idi Amin ?
    😉

    I’m not offended. Been called worse.

    Back to the argument.
    the proof is simple. As has been stated in the argument, there are only so many places/slots, for immigrants in Australia All immigrants !>/strong>
    These have been placed on the Buro of Stats site for decades.

    However, we fill those slots, is dependent on government policy at the time. For the last ten years at least, even further back than that, Australia has been told that we must become the clever country>/strong>

    Just how, by your total acceptance policy, is that making us the clever country again ?

    All corners of the debate, for all those years, have suggested that, in that total acceptance immigration policy, that we have to attract a larger proportion of skilled migrants. Even back to the days of Keating. If we have to accept every boatload that comes our way, how do we find room for the qualified and experienced migrants that we desperately need Ray ? Just increase the total of the influx ? Not that easy. It’s a typical lefty’s solution to the problem. Just get the cheque book out, and write a bigger cheque ?

  99. David says:

    bugger, that didn’t work

  100. Phill says:

    Iain your last paragraph in response to my comments just about sums up conservative ideology in a nut shell “Screw you Jack I’m alright”

    Australians are not buying what the conservatives have on sale at the moment, you’ll just have to get over it mate.Your side aint getting back any time soon, and all those refugees coming in under Rudd’s watch will, by the time your mob gets back in, be all Australian citizens.

    Here’s something to ponder some of those children on those boats may end up in schools with your kids.

    My grand children are learning Indonesian at school, they are seven years old, that tells me volumes, on where we are headed.It’s the new reality, get used to it.

  101. Ray Dixon says:

    David, that is not proof of any significant economic or social problems caused by accepting refugees.

    Quite simply you have no proof because there isn’t any.

    The numbers are not so significant that they would impact greatly on existing migration policies.

    When (and if) they become that significant (and they’ve got a long way to go) then the Govt will have to deal with it.

    You are just running off at the mouth..

  102. PKD says:

    I must admit that I cannot get my head around the point of Twitter either.

    Anyway Iain, as for activist lawyers moaning about lie detector tests (although I’m not sure they would in any case) to identify real asylum seekers – let them suggest something fairer, better and faster!!!

  103. David says:

    The proof Ray, I agree, is highly speculative.

    I like anyone else in this argument, is just judging by history, and by looking at the unemployment and job vacancy lists. The proof, we do have is the skills base, of ALL immigrants over the last fifty or so years. But, I agree, that is not very definitive either is it ?

    Again, why do all you lefties only believe the answer to any question is either yes or no ? Where is your middle ground ?

    I quote :

    “Without immigration, it is projected that the number of Australians of workforce age would begin to decline in little more than a decade. To help address the skills shortages that already face us, including in regional Australia, and the
    projected longer term decline in natural growth, the Government has announced an increased Migration Program of between 130,000 and 140,000 places for 2005-06, some 70% of which will be for skilled migrants and their families.
    This will be the largest Skill Stream on record. ”

    (Dept of Stats – ABS DISCUSSION PAPER, ENHANCING THE POPULATION CENSUS;
    DEVELOPING A LONGITUDINAL VIEW
    http://74.125.95.132/u/AustralianBureauOfStatistics?q=cache:-Kw0wnQ2Cz8J:www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3110124.NSF/497f562f857fcc30ca256eb00001b48e/528ccbe5e228767bca25702c00824f59/%24FILE/DIMIA.pdf+immigration&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&ie=UTF-8)

    My argument again, is not against immigration, but against un-skilled immigration.

  104. David says:

    Congrats on another ton Iain ?
    🙂

  105. PKD says:

    I see what your saying DD as one of those skilled immigrants myself. skilled economic migrants are a valuable asset. Asylum seekers of course, are exempt for such considerations…

  106. David says:

    As for your last

    You are just running off at the mouth..

    Keep it civil. Oh, stuff it, typical left wingdom dribble.

  107. David says:

    No, no no, and in case any of you didn’t hear this for the upteenth time, NO !!!!!

    What I am saying, is that there has to be a balance, and that is not what is happening currently is it ? i.e. The wholesale acceptance of boat people, from where ever, without proper detailed status checks. Why should our country have to be the only one here ?

    We need “skilled migrants”. I have been saying that our economy can only absorb a certain total specified number of immigrants per time period.

    Out of that total, there are skilled migrants, unskilled migrants, and of course refugees that pass the tests, that our governments have set.

    What also I am saying, is that some of these “supposed” political refugees aren’t are they ????? We, as a country, are being scammed.

  108. Ray Dixon says:

    Calm down David. The numbers are not creating a problem, not yet.

    Immigration and refugee acceptance are NOT incompatible and one is not conflicting with the other.

    As for “finding the middle ground”, that’s the Govt’s job and I trust them to do it.

    Why can’t you ever admit that you’re wrong?

  109. Ray Dixon says:

    What also I am saying, is that some of these “supposed” political refugees aren’t are they ????? We, as a country, are being scammed.

    That’s just hysteria. Calm down, it’s the Govt’s job to sort them out. So far they have. Again – there is no real problem here.

  110. David says:

    Again with the big brother is/will be our saviour. Neither party has an answer to these questions Ray.

    I don’t think it is hysteria at all, I also don’t believe that I am wrong. I have previously admitted when I am wrong in these pages, and I really believe, that in this case, I am not.

    To believe everything that comes out of government, is folly of ginormous proportions, and can be dangerous. One only needs to look at “Turnbuckle’s” last week, to realise that ?

    Why are our large corporations looking overseas, continually, for senior executive staff ? One only has to look at the Trujillo debacle, to realise how successful, and wide spread this practice is ? Our country has suitably qualified staff, so why is this practice so prevalent ?

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)

  111. Phill says:

    So much nonsense and so little time.

    I can assure you Australia is not the only recipient of refugees and other asylum seekers in the world.I do not have to repeat here what is clearly stated on the “Statue of Liberty” or do I.?

    Italy and Greece have had and still have refugees seeking asylum from the conflict in the Balkans.In fact Britain is the country of choice in the E.U. when it comes to asylum seekers.

    Compared to some other countries, and considering the favourable conditions here, we take less, and in fact could take many more than we currently do.

    David what is it with the left, and your it is either Yea or Nay?

    You clearly have a keen sense of humour, yes or no?As against what? The conservative position on everything, i.e. we have Gods given right to rule, and we are never wrong about anything.

    No more is the position of conservatives and their irreconcilable position more patently clear on this blog, than the issue of “Global Warming” No concessions nothing, we are right, and the rest of the world are all wrong.No not just the people who like me are in a learning process about the subject, but most of the worlds scientists by a country mile,who maintain it exists.I’ll run that by you again, by a country mile.

    And added to that insult to my intelligence,until I see some endorsement from a credited university or other place of learning showing some expertise in this area of global warming, the opinions of all the bloggers on this subject including mine, are not worth a fanny full of cold snow.

    Some twerp runs out a little information on some dude called Pilmer, and Eureka we’ve hit gold, global warming must be all bullshit.I mean it was cold in Darwin last week.Avey!

    You can’t make this shit up, I kid you not.

    But keep debating the issue, it wont change anything.

    As for the left throwing money at everything, that’s rich pardon the pun.Again, as against what?The likes of the John Howard”s of the world who cut money from dental care and other medical and public services.So kids of no fault of their own, can walk around with a mouthful of rotten teeth and needing braces, just because their parents are poor.Or as in Perth some poor women selling her morals on the street for a wheel chair for one of her children. .Ah but this is tough love in the world of conservatives.

    And my wife wants to know why I drink!!!?!

  112. David says:

    It just seems that the “left” only sees an argument in extremes. That is what I meant by yeah or neigh, There seems to be no middle ground, or “wiggle room” ?

    “I can assure you Australia is not the only recipient of refugees and other asylum seekers in the world”

    If this were truly the case Phill, why are the Iranian refugees, (or from wherever in the Middle East), risking all by coming here to Australia ? That’s the part I don’t get. If eu or other western countries, in the northern hemisphere, are as equal, in their manifest destiny of benevolence, as people are saying, why are such volumes of “refugees”, risking all, by traversing Indonesia, of all places, to come here, in nothing more than junks ?

    I agree that nothing that we say here, will ever change anything. As for my description of left and right, I know I know little really, in the grand scheme of things.

    From what limited experience I have had, I see the left attempts to spend it’s way out of trouble, where the right saves. We go through this cycle every now and again. Whitlam got us into debt, which in the end caused their downfall, with the Kemlani loan affair, Keating similarly. Looks like King Kev might be headed down the same road ? But, time will see I suppose ?

    All the years of studying theory, doesn’t count for squat, against five minutes of direct experience. As for me, lots of study, and some experience, but I am no expert either. I, like you, just have an opinion. I am centre if anything, perhaps a little left of that, but my mind can be swayed with a good argument or theory, that requires a bit of thought ?

    My argument, regarding refugees, illegal immigrants, whatever you want to phrase them, is simply this. Over the many decades, that refugees have been traversing the planet, the problem never ceases does it ? The flow never stops ? Why is that ? The increase in religious fundamentalism ? Perhaps the uptake of tyrannical dictatorships around the globe ?

    I don’t know what the answers are. That is not my job, but I have thoughts on the subject, as you do, and anyone else that writes a post here. I think it is fun just to see these theories, differing opinions and arguments, and how they are presented and argued. If it is not fun, or if the argument fray ceases to be fun, then what is the point ?

  113. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    That’s just hysteria. Calm down, it’s the Govt’s job to sort them out. So far they have. Again – there is no real problem here.

    I find It just a little amusing that you are so willing to place unconditional trust in Brother Number One Ray, you go as far as to repeatedly say that we should not even worry or be concerned when we (David and I ) perceive a problem or try to explore the issues because it is “the government’s job” to deal with the problem. Yet when it comes to local government issues you are very keen indeed to “opine on the Alpine”. We live in a democracy and to my mind that means that the people have a right and in fact a duty , to discuss and consider all of the “issues de jour” even when some people don’t think that there is any problem at all.

  114. David says:

    I’d go along with that.

  115. Ray Dixon says:

    Yes Iain & David , you two “perceive a problem” with refugees and the numbers that are arriving here and claiming refugee status – and no one else’s opinion matters to you.

    That’s about the size of it. Have fun agreeing with each other.

  116. David says:

    Again with the on/off argument Ray.
    It is not as simple as you have implied. There is a problem, actually, many problems that have to be considered.

    1. Assertion of validity of illegal immigrant status.
    2. Resettlement options upon classificaton
    3. Financial i.e who and how it is all going to be paid for
    4. Continuation of normal immigration requirements
    5. Load on social services.
    6. As “refugees” are resettled, upgrades of infrastructure required to cope with increased demand. Schools, doctors, hospitals, in the areas of resettlement, and so on.

    These are only just a few of the concerns, and these are only the ones I can think of. There will be many more. You can’t just open the gates, and let everyone in Ray, without even considering every one of the above. In any of your rebuttals Ray, have you even seemingly in your replies, mentioned any of the above ?

    If you think that is the job of government, you may be correct, but it has been proven in the past, that they cannot be trusted to complete ALL of the work required, before making these sweeping decisions.
    Let’s face it. How have they spent the last week, before a six week break ? Arguing about a bullshit email, with Turnbuckle leading the charge ? Sort of says it all doesn’t it ?

  117. craigy says:

    I think Ray has got this right.

    Iain and David, the supposed flood of 10,000 from Asia – if it comes- is a very small number. Keep in mind that we are looking at increasing the intake by 10,000 or so anyway. From the 10,000, some of people will have skills and those that don’t will help the labour shortage that still exists in the country.

    The biggest ‘problem’ area of ‘illegal’ immigration is with Visa over-stayers from the UK.

    I take a conservative line on this and say lock all English Visa over-stayers for five years, then put them on a leaky boat and set them a drift somewhere near northern Russia.

    That will stop them….don’t you think Iain and David?

  118. Phill says:

    David if you want me to supply the links to other countries noting asylum seekers I will. I am not that computer savvy unfortunately. We are not the only place they are going.They turn up in the E.U. more than they do here.That is a fact, your denial is laughable.

    As for governments and spending money.You indeed do have a keen sense of humour, Howard wasted millions just on advertising alone to tell us what was good for us.
    The worlds greatest treasurer also wasted millions on playing the stock market .It is all common knowledge.

    Whitlam and I don’t know what he has to do with it, was destroyed by the same biased media that is getting into Rudd., and put out the same bullshit about the refugees. Back then it was Packer and Fairfax, now it is Murdoch.The progressive left are hated by Australia’s M.S.M who are mostly controlled by approx three family’s, all right wing to a fault.I was old enough to vote for Whitlam so we’ll have no more bullshit on that score.

    Like you said Dave it’s experience on the ground that counts.

    The first thing he did was get the troops a pay rise and stop national service,he was a great P.M. and only num nuts and other dolts who wouldn’t know their arse hole from their elbow, thought otherwise.History has fully vindicated this man, end of story.

    The right wing cause is over, sure from time to time it will have it’s comebacks, that is the nature of the democracy we live in.However, the planet cannot go on for thousands of more years being raped and plundered, you have conceded this fact yourself, and with idiots risking all by saying global warming is bullshit.Most sane people will err on the side of caution, and you can take that to the bank.

    Extreme conservatism is as dangerous as communism, trying to connect us, and that includes me with Stalin or Mao is arrant nonsense.The Labor Party if it plays it’s cards right, and for mine Rudd is just the man to do it, can put the toxin of conservatism in the bin of history where it belongs forever.

    I’m afraid you and Iain really don’t get it, Howard was fired for being the uncaring shit bag he was, work choices was the cream on the cake for us.The plebs finally worked him out.Even Tony Staley their own president had them sussed for what they were.And thank God Talculm is carrying on the fine tradition.

    My last word on the subject is they are coming, and most will be staying deal with it.

  119. Ray Dixon says:

    There is a problem, actually, many problems that have to be considered.

    1. Assertion of validity of illegal immigrant status.: Yes David, that’s part of the process they go through.

    2. Resettlement options upon classificaton: Yes, and your point is?

    3. Financial i.e who and how it is all going to be paid for: Out of revenue. It costs money to run a refugee program and that’s one reason we pay taxes. It won’t break us.

    4. Continuation of normal immigration requirements: Yes, those arrangements will continue. The number of refugees would need to be a lot higher before it impacted on ‘normal immigrants’.

    5. Load on social services.Refer my answer at 3. Look at it this way David – their spending is good for our economy.

    6. As “refugees” are resettled, upgrades of infrastructure required to cope with increased demand. Schools, doctors, hospitals, in the areas of resettlement, and so on.: That’s another economic benefit of accepting immigrants & refugees. And you’re contradicting yourself with this one if you also say accepting refugees reduces the normal migrant intake.

    And I haven’t said we should “open the floodgates”. There has to be a limit to how many we can take, but we are nowhere near that limit yet.

    Although frankly, I’m not sure why I’m still bothering to engage you on this, David. You won’t back down will you, no matter how wrong-headed you’re shown to be?

    There must be a lot of emotion fuddling your reasoning on this. I wonder if that emotion starts with H and ends with atred?

  120. Alan Jackson says:

    David is an angry young man, Ray, perhaps he had a refo steal his (blow-up) woman?? I agree with you and Phill on this but as for “David ” well I don’t think you are going to change his mind. Same with Iain probably although he is more reasonable with his arguments.

    My dear old mother is much the same, she still thinks all the “wogs” who came here in the 50s are newcomers and she thought Pauline Hanson was on the right track, nothing you can say will change her mind. Their ideas will die out with them I guess and poor old David will find himself living in a street full of Indians, Arabs and Asians all calling themselves “Australians” and he will be wondering what the hell happened 🙂 🙂

  121. David says:

    Let me take care of the last, first.
    AJ
    You are confusing anger with deep concern.
    There is a difference, with reasonable arguments and succinct arguments. I’ll get to Rays responses in a minute. At least he has rebutted my arguments Ray, and that is what these pages are all about. That I appreciate.

    AJ. What’s YOUR solution again ?

    Again with the racist tag, that’s (sorry Iain), for upteenth time, bullshit ! My argument is economical. Don’t give a toss where they come from, the problem is still there. Numbers, and how we are going to pay for it, that’s my concern.
    The first five out of six years, I spent on the Solomon Islands, and being brought up by islanders. I yearn for those years to return, so again enough with the racist crap. If that is the best you can come up with, go away for another week or so, and have a think about it.

    ITS ECONOMICS NOT RACIAL

    RAY
    1. Looks like no problems here.

    2. Where do you put the new arrivals Ray. Do you want barracks, the same as the English had to suffer in the 50’s+ ? Who pays for that ? More importantly, how ?

    3. Out of revenue huh ? What revenue Ray ? How much has revenue fallen in the last 12 months ? We are already in a deficit, that arguably, will be the highest on record. That is the result of only ONE year of Labor’s benevolence ? We have another, what, 2 more Labor budgets to go ? Hmm, that’s a frightening thought ?

    “Projected government revenue has fallen by $200 billion since the last budget because of the global economic crisis”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Australian_federal_budget

    For the sake of the argument, let us just say, that in this case, close enough is good enough. That is already an outdated figure, and the budget is already blown to hell, but for the sake of the argument, the above will do. Out of what, do you think we are going to pay this out of Ray ?

    5. We’ll see. That is the part of the whole argument, that concerns me, and one of the questions that no one bothers to answer ? It’s always a grey answer. We’ll see, or too early to ascertain et al. Economists, with far more knowledge and experience than I, are still arguing over the last incentive package, and what effect (long term) it will have on the economy ? Short term fixes are not the answer.

    As an old analogy goes, build me a boat, and I will have a job for life. Teach me how to build a boat, and everyone in my village will have jobs forever !

    6. I agree with you Ray, in that it is an economic benefit, BUT how do we pay for it ? Out of falling revenues ?

    “I guess and poor old David will find himself living in a street full of Indians, Arabs and Asians all calling themselves “Australians” and he will be wondering what the hell happened”

    That’s bullshit AJ.
    Unless your of Aboriginal decent (and even they walked the land bridge of Asia before arriving), we all came from somewhere else. When I grew up, the immigrant intake consisted of people from all over Eu, and Asia. These migrants had skills, and helped build the society we have today. So again, enough with the racist tag, cos I am sick of being branded it. Again, it’s economics, not race

    Neither of you have come up with answers to the inherent problems that are arising, and will continue to arise. In any argument, or theory, that sort of response is narrow minded, visionless, and self destructive.

  122. David says:

    Phill
    Hey, no argument from me, with what you have said. Parties of both persuasions, have stuffed this issue up. It certainly is a hot topic, no doubt about that.

    “They turn up in the E.U. more than they do here.That is a fact, your denial is laughable.”

    It is not a denial, but consider….. why are they risking a voyage, some twenty times further in distance, by coming here Phill ? If Eu was as benevolent as us, there would be no reason to come here would there ?

    Neither of you have bothered to tackle this question ? I think it a valid one ?

    You are absolutely correct, in saying that Howard didn’t deal with the problem, and in the end, it partially caused his downfall. So, there is some justice in the world. All I am saying is, that it looks like King Kev is going down the same road. Sure, that is massive conjecture on my part. Have to wait and see what happens I guess ?

    I also agree with you, regarding Gough. I think his problem, was that he tried to do too much too quick, and didn’t have the money to get it done. That was a shame. I think he has been/is/was the strongest PM we have had, before and since.

    “Extreme conservatism is as dangerous as communism, trying to connect us, and that includes me with Stalin or Mao is arrant nonsense”

    I think ignorance or, indifference is worse ?

  123. David says:

    Buggered up the last line sorry

    I think ignorance or perhaps that should read indifference to the problem is worse ?

  124. David says:

    Now that I have cleaned the keyboard, perhaps there may be less typos ? 🙂

    Ray
    Missed 4. :

    “The number of refugees would need to be a lot higher before it impacted on ‘normal immigrants’.”

    I don’t agree.

    If Dept of Immigration considers that the most immigrants that the economy can ‘absorb’, within ‘x’ time period is say 50k, then surely the ratio between “needed” qualified immigrants, and refugees, will change ? How do we absorb the refugees economically Ray ?

    How do we pay for their training, their health care, their social security pensions ?

    Think about that for a minute. What is the average dole now for a single, about $500 a fortnight, that’s roughly $13k a year. Multiply that by 10k ? If I have worked it out right (and feel certain that someone will correct me 😉 ), that comes to $130 million a year. (note also here, I have not included the costs of discounts granted for – rates, health care, other government charges, such as registration charges yadda yadda, with the granting of the health care card that comes with the pensions ?)

    With an economy, and a government more importantly, trying to cope with massive falling revenues, how do we pay for that Ray if the ratio is increased ? Any suggestions ?

    Legit immigrants find themselves in jobs relatively quickly, after all, that is how they generally get into Australia in the first place. Any social services that they consume upon their arrival, they begin to repay straight away, with taxation and other economic inputs such as C and I. (consumption and Investment). They generally enter the country with assets, usually liquid, and as such, buy/build houses, cars, and so on, thereby increasing Demand. That kick starts the economy, and really, is one of the main reasons for the increase in immigration argument, in the first place.

    Refugees, don’t, at least for the first couple of years. They generally require schooling in our language, medical care, as well as many other social requirements ? They have no assets upon their arrival. This generally lasts for at least a couple of years until they find their feet.

    Again, simple economics ?

  125. David says:

    And the silence is deafening ?
    🙄

  126. Shawn Whelan says:

    Maybe it would be easier and cheaper to just ship all the leftoids over there?

  127. David says:

    With falling government revenues Shawn, we can’t afford to pay for the boat ?

    🙂

  128. Ray Dixon says:

    And the silence is deafening ?

    Forget it David. Why do you just want to go on and on about this? You’re like the boxer who has been knocked out in his past ten bouts against his rival but reckons he’s still the champion.

  129. David says:

    It is not the destination, rather than the journey that is most important ?

  130. Ray Dixon says:

    I enjoy the journey too David, but not when it keeps going around in circles and not when some of the passengers keep insisting that there’s no more room on ‘Bus Australis’ for the less fortunate and displaced people of this world.

    Maybe they should get off and make some room?

  131. David says:

    Oh look I agree Ray.

    I spent months in Somalia, Cambodia, Fiji, Solomon Is, and I saw first hand the suffering that people in these countries have to endure. We can offer a safe place to live, and grow, for them and their families. BUT, on the other side of the argument, compassion and emotion should be tempered with economic concerns as well.

    It cannot be easy, for the powers that be, to say no to some, and yes to others. The decision for them is made easier, simply by the fact, that they don’t have to see the people directly, that they decide upon ? In Somalia, I had little kids trying to lift my daily ration of chocolate right out of my pants leg pockets. Shifty little shits ! 🙂 The Cambodian kids, used to steal our rice packs when we weren’t looking. In the end, we just gave it all to them, and lived off the tinned stuff.

    I just think, and repetitive I know, that at the moment , our economy is pretty strapped, (stuffed maybe a more apt description ?), and our compassion, or perhaps a better word may be empathy, even though strong, should be tempered with a bit of economic reality ?

  132. Ray Dixon says:

    You’re deluded about the economy too, David. This is not a burden we can’t afford. Anyway, over & out.

  133. David says:

    How am I deluded Ray ?
    In what way ?
    That is such a grandiose statement to make.

    Please Explain ?

  134. Shawn Whelan says:

    Most of the worlds countries are impoverished government run jurisdictions. The reason that the English countries and the west was so successful was the lack of government. That is why the US was by far the most successful country in the history of the world.

    Now the big government is going to destroy that.

    I don’t know what the Sun is going to do but I am 99% sure we will have a second economic collapse within the year and it will be much worse than the first one. And it will likely be much sooner than a year.

  135. David says:

    From http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124212311230410221.html

    CANBERRA, Australia — The Australian government forecast its largest budget deficit on record of 57.6 billion Australian dollars (US$44 billion) as it struggles to offset a fall in revenue while lifting spending.

    Think about that for a second guys and gals !
    $57 BILLION DOLLARS !

    That is staggering ! How are we going to pay for all this again ?

  136. Shawn Whelan says:

    How am I deluded Ray ?
    In what way ?
    That is such a grandiose statement to make.

    Please Explain ?
    That’s lefty talk to cover for the fact that he knows nothing about economics.

  137. David says:

    Shawn ?

    Stick your head back in the sand it came from, or perhaps do some reading, and when you know something , come back and add your learned opinion.

    You think being $56Billion is a joke do you Shawn ?

    Guess who’s kids are going to have to work forever, to pay the bastard off ?

    don’t see the joke myself

  138. Shawn Whelan says:

    Think about that for a second guys and gals !
    $57 BILLION DOLLARS !

    That is staggering ! How are we going to pay for all this again ?
    Chump change compared to what Obama is doing.

    Obama’s trillion dollar spending has ensured the US economy will crash. And the rest will follow.

  139. David says:

    Can’t compare the two.
    The US has a population base 20 times that of ours. A completely different economy. BUT, you are correct in saying that massive spending will cause the economy will crash. If the US economy crashes any further, we will all be in bread queues ! No doubt in the world ! I agree !

    So how am I “economically illiterate” again Shawn ?
    The bloody lefties always think they can write another big cheque to solve the problem.

    It ain’t gunna work !!!

    For nothing, without arrogance, I would trust my economic knowledge against any of you guys.

  140. David says:


    Remember this Shawn ?

    The joke is on the immigrants.
    After the leftoids finish destroying the economy they will wish they stayed home

    You may well be spot on with that forecast ?

  141. Alan Jackson says:

    You two are obviously so worried about the coming financial crash that you should both emigrate now. Leave Aust to us dumb lefties and our refo mates, no doubt we’ll all be sorry in the end!! Just dont let the door hit you in the arse on your way out.

    LOL 🙂 🙂

  142. David says:

    boo-boom ! 🙂

    Where do we emigrate too though AJ ?
    We can run, but we can’t hide ? Perhaps Canada ?
    😉

  143. Alan Jackson says:

    Youre the one going mate, you choose, Im staying put in the “unlucky country”. You can watch me out begging for bread crusts on cable TV coverage live from Melbourne 🙂

    Why dont you try Korea, I see the man with the funny hair do has a new line in toy missiles 🙂

  144. Ray Dixon says:

    New Zealand, David. The country the world forgot. No boat people there, too far to paddle. Plenty of sheep though. You might find a soul mate.

    Meanwhile I’ll just make more hay while the sun shines. Funny, I wonder how we’d be going if the Govt was not spending?

    Geezus you take fright easily. Don’t worry. Btw, I think Shawn was actually agreeing with you!

    Thanks for the laughs.

  145. David says:

    I don’t think I would “fit in” with their ideologies somehow ?

    The 49th parallel would be ok though. I could shift camps at the drop of a hat, (at least if I could figure out how to dodge some, what 1.4m landmines ?)

  146. David says:

    Happy to help Ray, after all, it is not so often on these pages that I think you could crack a smile, let alone laugh ?

    “Meanwhile I’ll just make more hay while the sun shines. Funny, I wonder how we’d be going if the Govt was not spending?

    Really don’t know Ray. Ask me in a few years, when they add up the total debt, and we then realise we have to start paying it back.

    In the spirit of the post, perhaps you can ask the providers/owners of the refugee boats, for contributions ?

  147. Shawn Whelan says:

    So how am I “economically illiterate” again Shawn ?

    I didn’t say you were economically illititerate. Maybe you just don’t read good.

    The government spending has payed to delay the economic downturn. If you were broke and had no money coming in would you spend like a drunken sailor? And expect that to correct the financial situation?

    7 more US banks went under yesterday.

  148. Shawn Whelan says:

    Really don’t know Ray. Ask me in a few years, when they add up the total debt, and we then realise we have to start paying it back.

    The government has a solution for that.
    It is called inflation. Just inflate the money and the debt is easy to pay back. The invisible tax.

  149. David says:

    The government has a solution for that.

    Thought the solution Shawn was commonly called

    two term limit ?

    😉

  150. Shawn Whelan says:

    Tell me how the two term limit is the solution?

  151. David says:

    Well, for you guys, two terms, and they are out on their cabooses, aren’t they ?
    Guaranteed to wreck any politician’s day ?

  152. David says:

    Typical Ray, hit and run ?

    Still the question remains, how am I deluded Ray ?

  153. Shawn Whelan says:

    <i.Well, for you guys, two terms, and they are out on their cabooses, aren’t they ?
    Guaranteed to wreck any politician’s day ?
    So seven more years of train wreck Obama and that fixes the economy?

    Please explain oh master of economics.

  154. David says:

    Perhaps my “tongue in cheek” reply didn’t ring the bell it was supposed to Shawn ?

    I apologise, as for an Aussie, it would be a scary thought. Down here in Lala Land, there are no restrictions, as to the length of time, that our PM can hold on to power. As long as he/she can continue to win elections, then theoretically, until they “kick it”.

    At least in the US, there is the two term limit. All else fails, you have that ? We had “Jack Boot Jonny” for eleven years, so you think you got problems ? He was never popular, just a “lack of options”.

    I am no genius or master Shawn, far from it, actually the reverse. My first year of college, as we had the same professor for Microeconomics, as we did for Macroeconomics, the standard joke for mature aged student Davo, was “got the right book? This is MICRO !!!” or vikki versa. So, not the brightest lamp on the board, but they were patient, and my marks in the end were right up there, so all hail the Aus education system. I have been fortunate to study Accounting, Contract Law, some Copyright Law, Taxation Law, and a few others, for my degree, as a mature aged student, so I think, without ego, I am somewhat qualified to speak on the topic, and feel qualified to argue the topic from a solid grounding ?

    Again, the north american economy is different to ours. It is manufacturing based, where ours is mineral/resource and agrarian based, a massive difference. Any downturn in the world market place, is going to be felt first in the manufacturing and retail sectors, as people begin to stop buying. In time, that downturn hits the resource sector, as demand falls, so does the need for resources for manufacturing. Money changes destinations from Consumption to Savings. At least, so the eggheads tell us ? That is the reason as to why Labour down here, instigated the incentive packages. They wanted to give Demand a boost, hoping that the downturn would be short, and that increase in demand would tie the economy over, until demand returned. Didn’t work out unfortunately.
    Didn’t work here, as most people put their payments, straight into retiring debt ?

    Now, I see, that Obama is trying the same thing over your way.
    Hope you guys have a better result ?

  155. David says:

    Didn’t see this :

    The government spending has payed to delay the economic downturn. If you were broke and had no money coming in would you spend like a drunken sailor? And expect that to correct the financial situation?”

    That is debatable ? I don’t think so, but, some of these eggheads said, it may have delayed the inevitable, but won’t prevent it. Our economy relies on exports, especially mineral exports. If our trading partners are suffering a downturn, then that immediately slows exports, and it doesn’t take long for that downturn to be felt here.

    Our economy, under Howard, (with the introduction of the GST or consumption tax), as well as all the other taxes, became one of the highest taxing regimes on the planet. Fortunate for him at the time, China was beginning to emerge as a manufacturing power, and lusted for our natural resources, to feed that growth. So, under those conditions, the Liberal Party down here, began to amass a massive war chest. Meanwhile, our hospitals were falling to third world standards, roads similarly, and little infrastructure was being built. That is why Rudd is finding it tough today. So much has to be upgraded now, that of course that war chest quickly disappeared.

    As for banks ? Well, your system is a lot different to ours. Our banks were “nationalised” in 1949 I think it was, and under that scheme, federal government insurances/guarantees were put in place, to ensure that failure of a bank (note, only banks, not building or mutual societies), could not happen. Rudd came out last year, and said bank deposits were guaranteed down here, but he needn’t have, as they have been guaranteed since 1949.
    I fear for you guys though. I hope it all works out, cos as the old expression goes, the US sneezes, the whole world catches cold ?

  156. David says:

    sorry about the i, didn’t work

  157. Shawn Whelan says:

    I’m in Canada.
    Are government is similar to yours. We had the castro loving communist Trudeau as Prime minister spanning three decades.

    Your wrong about the economies in the US and Canada. Canada produces far more food than Australia and that amount is tiny compared to the USA. Except for around here where the economy is industralized in southern Ontario and Quebec, most of Canada is dependant on logging, mining and oil production.

    The US has far more natural resources than people realize.

  158. Shawn Whelan says:

    After 8 years of Obama if the US still has their freedom it will take a miracle to repair the damage. The Americans put in the two term limit law after FDR was voted in 4 times in the 30’s, 40’s.

  159. David says:

    You are correct of course.
    Here’s hoping that, for everyone’s sake, the downturn is a short one ?

  160. Ray Dixon says:

    Typical Ray, hit and run? Still the question remains, how am I deluded Ray?

    Because you exaggerate everything.

    You’ve exaggerated the extent of the boat people problem.

    You’ve exaggerated the extent of the economic problems – sh*t, it’s nowhere near as bad as the early 90s recession in Australia and, btw, we’re NOT in recession here and those of us running businesses are saying, “where’s the problem?” So are families with kids, mortgages and more disposable income.

    And now you’re exaggerating about me. “Hit & run”? Geezus, I’ve “hit” and “run” over your arguments so many times, yet you still carry on like a stuck record.

    Oh, you’re also exaggerating this post by making meaningless, benign comments.

    OK?

  161. PKD says:

    We had the castro loving communist Trudeau

    You do know what the definition of a Communist is don’t you Shawn? So either Trudeau spent years trying to change Canada to a one-party state, or your smearing this person with another porky pie…

  162. Phill says:

    You know I love this blog, it gives a new meaning to trowelling on the shite.It would need a front end loader to remove it, I am sure.

    You can’t make this shit up.

    I have heard it all now, not only has Obama caused the financial problems of the world after being in office for a few months, California is on the verge of being bankrupt but that’s all Obamas fault..Notwithstanding they have just got rid of the greatest waste of space, to have ever sat in the White House.An absolute buffoon of the highest order, this retard has made the U.S. a laughing stock.The republican party is on the verge of collapse, because it is full of retards with nice family values, most of whom, would root a dog on a rusty chain.

    Then we have Canada which is only two places in front of us ref – G.D.P. with a third more population, and somehow their economy is huge in comparison to ours.What unmitigated shite, what utter unadulterated twaddle.And on top of all that the world is cooling, Jesus bloody wept, no wonder the right wing cracka jacks are treated with utter contempt and losing their credibility.

    They indeed are on planet bloody ga ga.

    But keep up the good works lads, it warms the cockles of my heart knowing that the more twaddle that comes from the cracka jack right, the longer governments of the left persuasion will be in power.

  163. David says:

    Oh for Christs’ sake Ray, take a powder, and calm down.

    Talking about a person in total denial mode !

    I don’t deal in emotion, I deal in numbers, like any accountant does.

    NOT ONCE have you rebutted any of our economic arguments with fact, or even a cogent theory. Not even close.

    No where near as bad as the nineties huh. I don’t remember Keating racking up a $56b debt in his first year of power ?

    I am in business as well Ray, and my clients, (and I don’t know what field you’re in), that are not in the tourist or resource sector, are finding it tough. The only thing left, to enforce the ‘killer blow’ for a lot of them, is if interest rates were to start rising again.

    I am tired of goody two shoes, weekend speculators, denying that our economy is sick. To continue to say that everything is going along ok, is lacking in knowledge of not only basic economics, but , past experience, overseas trends, consumer consumption/expenditure patterns, and overall lack of foresight. I don’t know who said it but : “We have serious problems, and we need serious people to solve them.”

    I haven’t been reading these pages long Ray, but it seems that every time you lose an argument, or have no facts to back up your own, you begin with the personal cheap shots.

    I am not going anywhere. Once Iain’s theories, (but mostly mine and a few hundred other more clever people than I am, I guess) are confirmed, what will be your response then ?

    The situation has changed, or perhaps, couldn’t possibly see that trend eventuating ?

    Unfortunately, it will all take time to eventuate. That may save your dwindling credibility ?

    You want to argue the post, fine, argue it. Enough with the rhetorical anger. If you don’t like the fact that the post count is again getting high, compared to yours (or anyone else’s for that matter), or you don’t like how the post is progressing, or being argued, or cannot come up with a theory, with some facts to back it up, to rebut the argument, then the solution is simple.

    Go read a bloody book !

  164. Shawn Whelan says:

    You do know what the definition of a Communist is don’t you Shawn? So either Trudeau spent years trying to change Canada to a one-party state, or your smearing this person with another porky pie…
    In his youth Trudeau was a member of the communist party. That is a fact. Some porkie pie, Eh?

    And during WW2 he rode on his motorcycle dressed in a Nazi uniform. That is also a fact.

    And he certainly loved the old communist Castro. The rumour always was that his crazy young wife bopped Castro. I don’t know if that is a fact.

  165. PKD says:

    Once Iain’s theories, (but mostly mine and a few hundred other more clever people than I am, I guess) are confirmed,

    You two are of course welcome to have any theory you want (although Iain’s favourites generally involve conspiracies) – but I don’t expect they will get realised on the economy anytime soon.

    In fact, Rudd’s handling of the economy looks like saving us from, or at worst minimising the impacts of the recession, not exacerbating it!
    http://www.theage.com.au/national/economy-beats-the-odds-20090703-d7um.html

  166. PKD says:

    Well, now is your opportunity to fix Wikipedia Shawn – nowhere in the article for Pierre Trudeau does it claim he was in the communist party. All it states is he dud his disertation on Communism.

    Off you go anf fix the error then, and good luck when you get your addendum peer reviewed by everyone else!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Trudeau

    Otherwise – yup, I guess its another Shawn Whelan porkie…

  167. PKD says:

    The above shouldn’ve read *did* not dud – although ‘dud’ does sum up Shawn’s Trudeau claims quite nicely! 😉

  168. Shawn Whelan says:

    Here’s hoping that, for everyone’s sake, the downturn is a short one ?

    This is just a dead cat bounce we are in.

    There is another big downturn coming.
    Gonna be much worse than the first one.
    I expect that before the end of the year.

    The US made up all that pretend money and is propping the stock market up. At some point that is going to break and then you will see round two.

    In the US auto sales have dropped from the 17 million range to the 9 million range and house building has had a steeper decline while unemployment continues to increase. Europe has the same problem. That’s the two largest economies in the world. China’s economy is tiny in comparisn.

    And it is all interlinked.

  169. David says:

    Sorry PKD, I agree with Shawn on this one.
    This is only round one.
    Again, to keep in the spirit of the post, like the refugee ‘problem’, looks like no end to it anytime soon.

  170. David says:

    Actually, again to keep in the spirit of the post, I’ll bet dollars to donuts, that it exacerbates the refugee crisis. Perhaps, unfortunately for those concerned, the term “economic refugee” will increase in weight or standing, as to be equivalent to that of “political refugee” ?

  171. Shawn Whelan says:

    PKD

    Wiki as evidence?
    Just a joke. My uncle was a Cabinet Minister under Trudeau. I well know his history.

  172. Shawn Whelan says:

    In fact, Rudd’s handling of the economy looks like saving us from, or at worst minimising the impacts of the recession, not exacerbating it!

    Rudd pissing money away will just make it worse in the long term.

    When the US hits the next downturn all are going to take a big hit. I saw the last market crash coming since I study this stuff. And now I see another crash coming.

    If you invest wisely it is an opportunity to make lots of money. Gotta admit easier said than done. I see gold as the long term investment and food in the short term. Just my opinion, I am not giving advise on where you should invest your money.

    Every single economist that was right about the first crash is predicting another. Of course 95% plus of the economist (the consensus) were wrong then and will be wrong again.

    Your wrong on AGW and wrong on the economy. Time will show you the truth.

  173. PKD says:

    To be fair, you’re not the only people I’ve heard say that there is likely to be a second downturn…

    …Shawn, then given you’re family connections, you’re in a even better position to correct Trudeau’s post!

    If you don’t even try, I’ll have to conclude its because you know there is zero proof supporting your ‘facts’.

  174. Ray Dixon says:

    David, the only “facts” you’ve produced here are:

    1. There are boat people arriving in Australia (and even one, is one too many for you)

    2. Australia’s budget deficit (Btw, why do you think they’re doing that? Oh, it wouldn’t be to inject liquidity while they wait for private investment to pick up from a temporary hiccup would it?)

    Contrary to what you say about me it is YOU who gets angry and dismissive of other people’s opinions. You carry on like it’s bloody doomsday coming but it seems to me you wouldn’t know sh*t because you spend all your time here.

    No credible business person I know goes around saying “the sky is falling”. Maybe you should get a new moniker – ‘Chicken Littlle’ comes to mind.

  175. Shawn Whelan says:

    wiki’s a joke PKD.
    They are run by a bunch of nutter lefties and delete what they don’t like.

  176. Shawn Whelan says:

    Ray the sky is falling in the USA.

    You guys are more tied into Asia and that may save you, but I doubt it.

  177. Ray Dixon says:

    I couldn’t care less what’s happening in the nuthouse, Shawn. It WILL NOT impact greatly here. The USA is finished as a major economic power. No one needs it any more. Game over USA.

    Btw David, someone should write a blog post about you and your wacky obsessive comments on Iain’s blog. I don’t care about numbers of comments here compared to my blog -. fortunately I don’t attract wackos like you, not since I got rid of a group known as ‘Save Bright” who made you look sane – but you seem to be on a mission to set some kind of world record for weirdness.

    Maybe I’ll write it at some stage. You can come and defend yourself – if you could raise your own integrity, that is.

  178. Shawn Whelan says:

    Your very wrong Ray.

    Time will show me right.
    I am patient.

  179. Phill says:

    ‘ I am patient.”

    You forgot to put an a in that Whelan.

  180. David says:

    Again with the cheap shots, with absolutely nothing of substance to back it up with ?

    “It WILL NOT impact greatly here. The USA is finished as a major economic power. No one needs it any more. Game over USA.”

    Only the second largest economic market on the planet ?
    Just about every market on the planet sells them manufactured goods. Where do the resources come from, to manufacture those goods Ray ? Pluto ?

    Could it be that Japan, who buys our massive resources, and perhaps an emerging China, could be one of their largest trading partners as well ? Hmm, worthy of a thought. We sell resources such as iron ore to Japan, they build cars, and sell them to the US ? Looks like a plan ?

    I am not the one that has to defend their integrity Ray. You still haven’t proved where I am wrong, with any “checkable” or even “rhetorical” reference, so like a good boy, sit down and be quiet, and let the adults talk now.

    I am waiting with generosity, and humility, to say I am wrong Ray. All you have to do, is offer up a creditable source ? Hmm, still waiting ?

    Hey Phil, just got that ! sorry mate, but have to agree with Shawn on this one.

  181. Ray Dixon says:

    like a good boy, sit down and be quiet, and let the adults talk now.

    I don’t want to break Iain’s posting rules, David, so I won;’t tell you to Get F*cked over your patronising comment.

    Listen, D*ckhead, you’re just a blabbermouth.

  182. David says:

    Forgot this little triumph of left wing bullsh+t

    2. Australia’s budget deficit (Btw, why do you think they’re doing that? Oh, it wouldn’t be to inject liquidity while they wait for private investment to pick up from a temporary hiccup would it?

    To be honest, and to be fair to you, you are sort of right Ray. I will try and show some fact for you to critique, I include the below, from the Assistant Federal Treasurer Chris Bowen, MP, from an interview transcript with Jason Morrison from 2GB, from the 2nd of Feb this year.

    http://www.treasurer.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=transcripts/2009/003.htm&pageID=004&min=ceb&Year=&DocType=2

    Well what you see is what Ross and I would call ‘automatic stabilisers’ – that’s the jargon – what does that mean? It means that the budget responds to the economy. So when times are tough, like there are at the moment, welfare payments go up and our tax revenues go down. When things start to turn around when things get better, tax revenue will automatically go up and our expenditure will automatically go down because you’ll find unemployment going down so therefore the payments go down, etc.

    I would agree with that certainly. in the short term !
    But this recession, (and don’t be deluded to think we aren’t in one), is going to be far from a short one, I don’t care what our pollies are telling us. We had this discussion six months ago ! Still there ! We are generally six months to a year behind the US. Looks like no end to the dramas over there, does it ? Not much hope for a rosy next six months is it ?

    The economical theory about going into a budget deficit situation, is to attempt to even out the peaks and troughs, that a capitalist economy throws at it’s inhabitants occasionally. A smoother if you like, as Chris Bowen (the Assistant Treasurer), is trying to explain above. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. On this occasion, it isn’t going to work, as the underlying cause of the downturn has not gone away, and all the incentive packages in the world, won’t cure the situation, until that underlying cause goes away.

    What was that cause ? That is open to conjecture. Fanny May et al, possibly a partial cause. Massive over valuation of the world’s stock markets. Due to the untold billions now invested in superannuation, where is that money being invested in the short term ? Stock market ! Always has been. With traders desperate to offload billions of superannuation contributions, into the market, values artificially rise, in the short to medium term. The “tech boom” on the share market was a classic example of this, and a tell tale sign of future failure. Tech companies, with a bugger all fixed asset base, which is usually signified in their share price on the market, had share prices/values 100 times what that asset base was worth. They were borrowing money on that value, when anyone who was anyone knew that this practice was not sustainable. Boom, eventually, down it went. Ka-thump ! They haven’t recovered either have they ?

    To keep in the spirit of the post, do you honestly think, that accepting more refugees, that have no money, no other tangible assets, that for at least the first couple of years after their arrival, are going to be a further financial drain on an already tapped economy, is a good policy ?

    Sorry, and to be polite, don’t see it.

  183. David says:

    As I was trying to research some FACTS for you to deny, you were writing you little pearl of friendship towards your fellow man.

    I have never met such an arrogant, undeducated, waste of space like you Mr Dixon. We had a term in the RAAF that describes you so aptly,

    You’re an oxygen thief

    Go away, spend three years learning from the experts like some of us have, and maybe you can come back an argue on a level playing field. Until then, take your left wing uneducated dribble, and

    inflict it on someone else

  184. Ray Dixon says:

    David, you talk dribble, not me.

    Your economic ramblings are just laughable. You’re the weirdest freak on the internet mate, and your knowledge of how the real world works is limited to your own delusions and misguided fears.

    In short you are a f*cking idiot.

  185. Stephen says:

    I have been perusing this blog for a while now, without saying anything much, but this topic seems too good to pass up.

    Whilst you’re all having a bit of an argument, in the words of “Turnbuckle” ponder this ?

    Ray,
    I read with interest, your comments and there would seem to be a ‘thread’ of socialism, flowing through your veins. I doubt whether, you would get much satisfaction from either side of Australian politics, whether it be Liberal, Labor, or the Greens. Whilst your leanings are probably more towards Labor’s ideologies, I believe you are more in tune with a socialist style of politics. Our history speaks of a world leader, with the strongest of socialist ideals. This person pioneered affordable social housing, a coastal resort for it’s working class, and even a car that everybody could afford. It was called the people’s car ? The world’s greatest socialist’s political party, was called the Nationalist Socialist Party, and it’s leader was none other than Adolf Hitler. Like all true socialist parties, they are all led by dictators. But enough said, about my assumptions re your political leanings

    Whilst we are all having such a stimulating chat on global economics, I would like to introduce a little brain fodder, that should stimulate strong debate, and I would expect nothing less than strong debate !

    So, let’s get down to it > .

    But what are our true unemployment statistics, because both sides of government have been concealing them for years. Trainee ships, dodgy courses, disability pensions and minimum hours of part time work, all of which hide the true bottom line. These should be included in the unemployment statistics. If they were to include these, it is more than likely that current Australian statistics would be worse than that of the US.

    Why you may well ask?

    Because we aren’t forced to sell assets to survive after a few weeks of being unemployed, as is the case in the US. The US also don’t hand out welfare like we do, which forces people to do any kind of work to survive. We can still kick back on the dole, but just do the odd course and the Government doesn’t mind because it makes their figures look better.
    I have no doubt that wave two of the recession will hit late this year or early next year, and the only thing that is cushioning our economy is the inordinate number of public servants that are seeing the hardship that the rest of the country is facing as a bargain basement opportunity to spend. Our property bubble is well overdue to burst and when it does then the shit will hit the fan big time. The Government needs to stop propping up the market with first home buyers grants and let the market find its true level. If they do then property prices will crash and their aspirations of affordable housing will be answered.

    But do we all realy want this ?

    Fu*k affordable housing, I say, and suspect that every home owner would agree with me. New millenniums and generation x and y don’t want to buy houses anyway they want to live with mum and dad or prefer to rent and travel.

    I am certain that these views, will stimulate a diverse range of opinion ?

  186. Phill says:

    1.David if bringing in people to an underpopulated country like ours doesn’t create wealth and jobs why do you think they do it?Notwithstanding following your logic of only letting in skilled migrants, why was their a skill shortage with the last resource boom.

    2. After eight years of George Bush and his policy’s, are you seriously suggesting that he and his crooked mates in Wall St were not the cause of a possible financial implosion, that I agree with Ray will not I hope be as bad here?

    3.And finally I’m amazed you are arguing with Ray on his point of view that the U.S.A. is an empire that is in decline.There is enough information being circulated on the net now that shows it is in a world of shit financially, and it’s poor and middle class are paying for it.It was on the news as late as last night, California may be forced to issue i.o.u.’s to it’s pensioners.And who is the governor prey tell,? Yes a narcissist republican b grade movie actor.

    Only last month now this is a fact(do your own research) up to fifteen hundred people lined up in Kentucky U.S. with medical conditions in some cases fairly serious, to be treated by a few volunteer doctors who no doubt were trendy liberals as they are known stateside.

    My point! what has this got to do with Obama?

    Oh by the way David, I am not some blue singleted stubbie short wearing concrete boots clad left wing leftoid.Unlike probably at least two on this blog, who have never done anything for anybody, I to have run,(now retired) a business employing people that was successful thank you very much.

  187. David says:

    Stephen
    This is such an apt description, or Mr Dixon’s political leanings.

    Better said than I could
    🙂

  188. Ray Dixon says:

    I am certain that these views, will stimulate a diverse range of opinion ?

    Oh sh*t, another doomsayer. No Stephen, you are wrong about me. I am not a “socialist” and I am not a “greenie” and I am neither left or right. I am actually a capitalist business owner and part-time property developer. But I have a social conscience and I detest the conservative ‘down with the poor’ line of politics.

    No mate, don’t spread your gloom & doom theory with me. You (and David & Iain & Shawn) would not be so downcast in your forecasts if it were not for the fact that the conservatives are out of office in both the US and Australia.

    It’s not the ‘end of the world’ and your forecasts are a pathetic cover up for your own political ideology.

  189. David says:

    PS
    That will give him something to Google ?

  190. Ray Dixon says:

    Shut up moron.

  191. David says:

    PPS
    Stephen
    My brother has designed a car as well. Iain has the photos.
    He calls it a Ferrari for the homless?
    😉

  192. David says:

    did you find that on Google Ray ?

    BTW Iain
    The new people’s car ?

  193. David says:

    hang on Ray
    On your own website, you state, right at the bloody top for all to see :

    Slightly of the Left, but worthy of respect !

    so, now you are saying that you are right wing ?

    Talking about being a bloody switch hitter

  194. Phill says:

    Dear oh dreary dear! Here we go again. Look Stefan me old China get one thing into your muddled head. The Nazi’s were not “Socialists” They were rabid right wing homicidal maniacs.

    The tern the “Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party” IS A MISNOMER. The fact you can’t tie the progressive left to Mao,Stalin, or any other homicidal maniac out of the past upsets the wing nuts to be sure, so now let’s see if we can tie them to our side of politics, with a bit of spin.

    This is going against was is accepted dogma by every historian that ever picked up a pen, even Winston Churchill himself describes them as right wing fascists.

    So spare everyone your wisdom on the matter, it is an outrageous lie, and not an opinion, get it?

  195. Iain Hall says:

    Come on Guys
    just five more comments to hit the double ton!
    😀

  196. Stephen says:

    I am not saying that I am a fan of socialist politics. History talks of many socialist leaders, Stalin, Hitler and so on. But at the end of the day, they were extreme dictators, and when you look at political parties, with strong socialist ideologies, such as the ALP, one cannot be anything but concerned, with what ends up being parties ruled by dictators.

    It has always been my view, that government should not feed, clothe, or house it’s population, but provide the tools that would enable them do it themselves.
    Also, I believe that when you see government, and public service, the size of what we are currently seeing in Australia, it is deeply concerning to see, that it is, especially when you compare it to communist countries, like China for example, our public service and government, would be big enough to run an economy, not only the size of China, but probably bigger.

  197. Phill says:

    Ah very good at avoiding that little fact! History does not talk of Hitler as a socialist end of story.

    Your thoughts on what governments should do or not do for it’s citizens is the Nazi philosophy in a nut shell.The only slight difference now is, we don’t try to quietly get rid of our citizens with a mental deficiency in gas chambers.Although I have no doubt some in the modern day Liberal Party would no doubt like to be locking up unionists, or any other dissenters that don’t fit in with their wacky ideology.

  198. David says:

    Sorry Phil, in all the fray back and forwards, didn’t get to yours.
    Stephen popped in there, and I got too engrossed in that.

    Your last first

    Hitler was not a socialist ? Sorry mate, I don’t agree. I did a quick google, and came up with below from :
    http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html

    quotes were written by Friedrich Engels, Karl Marx’s co-author
    “So let that be an introduction to the idea that Hitler not only called himself a socialist but that he WAS, in fact, a socialist by the standards of his day.
    Ideas that are now condemned as Rightist, were in Hitler’s day, perfectly normal ideas among Leftists. And if Friedrich Engels was not a Leftist, I do not know who would be.”

    That seems to be the lay of the land, at least Google land Phill ?

    To your number 1 Phill, I totally agree. My argument is not with immigration, it is balancing our compassion for the displaced peoples of the earth, against our need for skilled migrants. That argument has been fought above.

    Your 2. Off course it was, and that was what I was talking about above, with the hedging that was going on. It happened here, but to a lesser degree. The situation still hasn’t hit bottom yet, far from it. Everyone seems to think it is at is bottom, I think that is a wild guess, and an incorrect assumption at best. We have a lot lower to go yet. This is only the start.
    I didn’t say Obama was at fault, what I DID say was that any trends, that occur in the US, usually find there way here shortly thereafter. We are slightly more insulated against the hard fall, purely by our resource/mining sectors, that hopefully will soften the fall.
    With not only American, but also general western disposal incomes falling, and with the US large manufacturing industry, reliant on that disposal income, what do you think is going to happen ? Don’t need to be Einstein to see it. After all, it is happening now with General Motors in the US being a perfect example, of what is to come ?

    Doomsday soothsayer huh ?
    It’s happening right now, and this is only the start.

  199. PKD says:

    I don’t think John Ray saying Hitler was a socialist is going to fool anyone… Nazi’s were far right guys, and no amount of historical revision will change it. I mean, claiming Hitler was somehow a left wing socialist is as hollow as the far-right still trying to deny the holocaust happened…

  200. Shawn Whelan says:

    Read this and you will get it right from the horses mouth that Hitler was socialist. I do realize lefties don’t read and let the government provide them with their knowledge.

    Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler
    http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/

  201. Shawn Whelan says:

    “The only slight difference now is, we don’t try to quietly get rid of our citizens with a mental deficiency in gas chambers.”

    A very lucky break for you.

  202. Shawn Whelan says:

    From the father of Peter Schiff, perhaps the first to accuratelly predict this recession. Well worth reading.

    How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn’t
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/7500410/How-an-Economy-Grows-and-Why-It-Doesnt-Irwin-Schiff

  203. David says:

    Thanks Shawn.

    Congrats Iain ! Another 200

    🙂

  204. Phill says:

    David, sorry mate nice try though.PKD is right,ha ha! nothing said here will change what is accepted dogma on Hitler he was a rabid right wing fascist.I have watched a thousand docos read a thousand books,a couple of school boys are not going to change what is accepted history.

    I find it funny actually that this mind set, and I have been around for nearly sixty years, about Hitler being somehow of the left bent, is only happened since the right wing of the political spectrum has been losing favour of late.It has never been an accepted theory he was a socialist even by his protagonists.The right are looking to other areas of fantasy to draw converts from.

    Hitler being a socialist is a nonsense and I am having no further discussion on it.It is tantamount to arguing the sky is anything but blue.

    Well as for the economy David I agree,I partly agree with Ray Dixon but that is more in hope than what I really think.

    You don’t need to explain it Dave I know what is going to happen, but that has nothing to do with being left wing.To blame any of the financial machinations on any thing else except greedy bankers and other spivs is just not going to wash.

  205. Phill says:

    “A very lucky break for you.”

    Who put that bit of wit in for you brains trust, your mother?

  206. Stephen says:

    There is other world leader, that claims to represent the workers, and has socialism running through his veins, and also claims to be a right wing economic conservative by modern definition.

    So is Rudd a dictator?

    History will tell us whether he fits the mold. In answer to that question, but it fair to say that he is well on track, or to use his words, hes at the “fork in the road”. He certainly cracks it, if he doesn’t get what he wants, and is well known for bullying his staff and even to the point of bringing women to tears.

    I believe that it would be a better than even bet, that he was bullied at school, and has never been part of the cool group of kids at school, or had a lot of friends. I would also bet that he is carrying a lot of psychological baggage from his childhood, and that would go some way to explaining his demeanor. I’m sure that there are many that see him as far more than just a nerd, but a self serving nerd that thinks he’s the incarnation of Mother Teresa. All is not lost however, Labor has a back up. Julia, the lady in waiting that just happens to have the same hairdresser as sideshow Bob on the Simpson’s. I bet she wasn’t a cool kid either.

  207. Phill says:

    “From the father of Peter Schiff, perhaps the first to accuratelly predict this recession. Well worth reading.

    How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn’t”

    I’m sitting here pissing my self laughing.Brains truss gives us links to a known rabid right wing tax cheat.And the kicker he’s still in jail.

    hehehehhe hhooo fal;ls over on ground heheheheheh.

    This is good Iain do you pay Whelan?

  208. Phill says:

    So not only can we get a laugh on here we can now get a quick

    “Psycho Analysis” by Dr Stephen.

    I reckon a word association test by Dr Stephen and the anticipated answers to prove sanity would have would be..

    War —————————Rudd.
    Unemployment————Rudd
    Murder————————Rudd
    Refugees——————–Rudd
    Deficit————————-Rudd
    Unions————————Rudd
    Communists—————-Rudd and his children’s, children.
    Socialists——————– Rudd & Hitler
    Cause of WW2————–Rudd but blamed on Hitler
    Vietnam conflict————-Rudd, Stalin,Mao, John Lennon
    Sex——————————Julia Gillard

    There coming to take me away ha ha, there coming to take me away. he he he.

  209. Shawn Whelan says:

    Phill,

    You’re such a dingbat, a master of dingbatology.

    Your a military man(so you say) that doesn’t even know the caliber of the rifle he was shooting. Your knowledge on other subjects is equally ludicrous.

    Please leave the adult conversation to the adults.

  210. Phill says:

    Hey next to you shit for brains, I could pass myself off as Albert Einstein.If you indeed had a brain you no doubt would be dangerous.

    Leaving the conversation to the adults is a very fine notion indeed, and where do you propose I find one of those in your part of the world?

    I can tell from the very make up of the schlock you dish up as informed comment, it is hatched in the gray matter of a person of about six years old.Are you walking yet?

    Oh yes I am a military man, you can make book on that, it something you may aspire to, but will never ever attain, there are high standards to getting in the military, however, you unfortunately wouldn’t pass the entry examination, that requires a modicum of intelligence..

    You my dopey friend is something to amuse me in between my other hobby’s.I feel sorry for you actually, there is nothing more pathetic than an imbecile trying to pass himself off as an learned intellectual.

    No go back to your circus act you clown.

  211. David says:

    Remember Phill, that meanings of words change slightly throughout history. The quotes said he was described as a socialist, of his day
    Guess their meaning of Socialism is different to that of today ?

  212. Shawn Whelan says:

    No, Hitlers socialism was the same as today’s socialism.

    The main platform of Hitler’s National socialists Labour Party was the end of capitalism-same as todays socialist.

    Control the speech–same as todays socialist
    Gun control-same as todays socialist
    Control the school system and indoctrinate the children-same as todays socialist
    Control the banks-same as todays socialist
    Control the industry-same as todays socialist

    Big government running everything-same as todays socialist

    Phill,
    What I have seen is that the army will accept most any loser. There is no strict admittance rules.

  213. Shawn Whelan says:

    Phill,
    The Wizard of Oz.

    When Ray pulled back the curtain you were awful quiet.

  214. Ray Dixon says:

    On your own website, you state, right at the bloody top for all to see : Slightly of the Left, but worthy of respect !

    You really are a knee-jerk nutter, David. You put up comments like that without the slightest bit of thought or accurate research as though what you say is a fact.

    There is no such statement on my website and there never has been. There is a similar statement here in Iain’s sidebar. They are Iain’s words not mine. A 6 year old could have worked that out.

    Anyway I’m glad you said it. It’s just another example of how confused you are.

    As for Stephen & Shawn getting on to Hitler and comparisons with Rudd etc … how f*ckin’ ridiculous has this post become?

    What we’re seeing here is the conservative side of politics clutching at straws. Well, given that you’re unlikely to return to Government at the next elections here and in the US, I guess you’ve nothing better to do.

    New post and new topic required, Iain. This one reached lunatic stage long ago.

    Cheers nutters!

  215. Abu Chowdah says:

    “I don’t think John Ray saying Hitler was a socialist is going to fool anyone… Nazi’s were far right guys, and no amount of historical revision will change it. I mean, claiming Hitler was somehow a left wing socialist is as hollow as the far-right still trying to deny the holocaust happened…”

    This is spot on. The issue however remains that many of the behaviours/policy objectives of the Nazis (including especially their belief that they know what is best for the collective) are shared by socialists – both malign and benign.

    That’s why to align the Right with Fascism is also inaccurate. The classic liberal view is that freedoms in society are derived from the rights of the individual, not the collective.

  216. Shawn Whelan says:

    Ray
    Your just covering up because you know absolutely nothing about the subject except what your beloved government and the media has told you.

    Of course Hitler was a socialist and believed in the same economics as todays socialists. Read Mein Kampfe and see what he says instead of babbling about what you know nothing about.

  217. PKD says:

    Remember Phill, that meanings of words change slightly throughout history. The quotes said he was described as a socialist, of his day
    Guess their meaning of Socialism is different to that of today ?

    Yes – because in the bizarre backwards world some are living in, being a Nazi means being a left winger! Presumeably by the same reverse logic, Stain was really a closet far-right dictator? Basically people who argue Hitler was a left wing socialist are doing so ‘under the covers ‘ to try and establish that ALL dictators we’re / are left0wingers and that there is NO SUCH THING as right-wing dictator or even the far right!

  218. Stephen says:

    We have every right to blame Rudd for everything. Remember his most famous statement THE BUCK STOPS WITH ME. The words of a true nationalist socialist dictator.

  219. David says:

    “New post and new topic required, Iain. This one reached lunatic stage long ago.”

    We only ever seem to get this comment from Ray, any time the total gets this high, and when you get your ar*e kicked in the argument.

    Again Iain, congrats on the 200, well done, another great and emotive topic.

    It is a shame though, that some people can’t keep it together in the fray.

    As for your denials Ray, waste of time. A true left winger envisages a world, where government looks after all and sundry, without a care in the world, as to how it is to be paid for. Funny, that is exactly what you have been preaching, on this very page. A bit hard to back away from it now ?

  220. David says:

    Sorry Phil, would like to reply to this one ?

    What I have seen is that the army will accept most any loser. There is no strict admittance rules.

    Don’t agree Shawn. If Phil’s screening was anything like mine was, it was a hellish process. Mine took about three months, and I was already about 70% trained up, before I even went in. With unemployment being so high, and at least for trades, the teaching being amongst the finest to be found anywhere, the rejection rate is about 90%. So pretty competitive.

  221. David says:

    There is no such statement on my website and there never has been. There is a similar statement here in Iain’s sidebar. They are Iain’s words not mine. A 6 year old could have worked that out.

    Yet, you never deny it, or ask Iain to change it ?

    And another, and this is straight from your own blog dixon

    “Anyone can comment here but please be respectful when talking to or about other people. Obviously you should not libel anyone or be abusive. I just ask you to exercise some common sense & courtesy, stick to the issues, and avoid personal slurs & insults.”

    Pity you don’t follow your own rules. and in the spirit of your own benevolent tonal vocabulary, p*iss off yourself.

  222. Ray Dixon says:

    There you go, blowing another gasket, David. Reverting to using my surname again? That’s the mark of real pig.

    As for my comments policy, obviously there are times when someone gets personal – like you constantly do – that I return like for like.

    You’re a very immature person David. You never admit when you’re wrong, you revert to insult when you’re found out on something and then you claim (as you have above) that you’ve won the argument !!!

    This post is insane, Iain, and you’ve got a real nutter on your hands with this David (oh, sorry, with David). Your blog mate, but if he were carrying on like this at mine I’d tell him to pull his head in or be banned.

    Dickhead David No other way to describe him.

  223. David says:

    As for my comments policy, obviously there are times when someone gets personal – like you constantly do – that I return like for like.”

    There it is, “the duck and weave policy makes it’s return.” Been watching Turnbull on the telly this week Ray. Right out of his playbook !

    You’re a very immature person David. You never admit when you’re wrong, you revert to insult when you’re found out on something and then you claim (as you have above) that you’ve won the argument !!!

    Sounds like you are making a perfect self analysis there Ray. Speaking straight from the heart ?
    I don’t start abusing people, when I am wrong Ray. Also, I have always admitted when someone has proven me wrong.

    Still waiting for you to be MAN enough to do the same.
    Not holding my breath tho.

    You want to sling the crap Ray, hey, I can play that game to, but be careful, better wear a helmet, cos you are going to get it thrown straight back at you with interest.
    Have a happy day you bloody troll.
    🙂

  224. David says:

    And just to improve your mood for the day ahead, and I am loathe to say this, being a St Kilda supporter for the last 40 some years.

    Geelong is going to win by at least ten goals, so better get those valium ready.

  225. David says:

    What’s with the catty mood Ray. Did the “Look at me, aren’t I wonderful” mirror in your bathroom break again ?

    You want to continue with the personal insults Ray, terrific, I’ll play ?

    but if he were carrying on like this at mine I’d tell him to pull his head in or be banned.


    That is a problem, you will never have to face Mr Dixon, EVER, so get over it !

  226. David says:

    I’ll beat Iain to the punch and…..

    🙄

  227. PKD says:

    Seriously, would the people here who think Hitler was a socialist left-winger like to name a few far-right dictators?

    I bet you can’t – it’s the ‘there’s no such thing as the far right’ denialism in play here…

  228. Abu Chowdah says:

    Seriously, would anyone care to list the SIMILARITIES between Stalin, Mao and Hitler?

  229. David says:

    Ooooooo Abu,
    Well, a couple that immediately come to mind.

    State owned corporations
    Shared wealth
    The “people’s car”
    Socialised state run medicine
    Large military
    Isolationism
    Genetic purity

    that should be enough to get you started ?

  230. Ray Dixon says:

    Four ‘angry’ posts to respond to my one, David? Geezus you love to ‘beat your chest’ don’t you? What sort of idiot sits at a keyboard and huffs & puffs like you do? My God man, you’re not even using your real name so what are you so upset about?

    As for the way this thread on boat people has mutated into comparisons with Hitler … well I guess you’ve got nothing better to do.

    Iain (and this does NOT require a response from you DDD), if you’re going to let this idiot stomp his way around your posts unabated with his constant insults and chest-beating craziness, then I might as well tell you that I’ve no intention of coming back here.

    PS David, try to refrain from making your obvious feeble-minded retorts for once will you?

  231. David says:

    Iain (and this does NOT require a response from you DDD), if you’re going to let this idiot stomp his way around your posts unabated with his constant insults and chest-beating craziness, then I might as well tell you that I’ve no intention of coming back here.

    Taking your ball to play elsewhere huh ? Well, there is a mature, and measured response, to getting one’s a*se kicked in an argument ?

    Oh, mummy daddy, DD is being mean !!! Sob Sob !!

    What sort of idiot sits at a keyboard and huffs & puffs like you do?

    Well, one person comes to mind. You know him very well RD.

  232. David says:

    If you can’t take the abuse Mr Dixon, the solution is simple,
    Stop dishing it ?

  233. David says:

    Forgot this bit ?
    So you reckon I am not using my real name huh ?
    Hmm. Like everything else that comes out of your mouth Mr Dixon, pure conjecture and diatribe, so instead of letting your jaw do a merry dance, put up or shut up. PROVE IT !

    Unfortunately, like all of us, we could not tell our parents, upon our hatching, what to name us. Just saving time, insulting myself.

  234. Ray Dixon says:

    This is good. Keep going fruit cake, I’ve got a couple of hours to fill before the game.

    Btw, it’s funny how you don’t comment anywhere else, although I see you’re commenting at Grods now. (Well, actually, that was me – just in case you coudn’t work it out).

    Prove it? Oh well David, if you insist that you’re not using an alias then it’s more up to you to prove you are who you say you are, wouldn’t you say?

    Not that there’s anything wrong with using an alias, except when you use it to insult others who comment here under their real name.

    Now that would be cowardly – especially for ‘a military man’.

    Carry on – please!

  235. David says:

    Oh, what an absolute tosser.
    Again, can’t win the argument with logic, so go for the personal attacks. What’s your argument again ?

    Ex military, yep, you betcha, and to keep in the spirit of your last insult RD, that is a career you needn’t contemplate. There is a strict psych test that you have to pass, before you get in. Well, there’s any hope you had down the drain.

    I see also, that you are using your “communist vision of Eden” again Ray ? Hmm, western justice is based on the fact, that everyone is innocent until proven guilty

    Facts man, just the facts. Proof !!!!
    Again, put up or shut up !
    Have a happy day !
    😉

  236. Ray Dixon says:

    Innocent of what?

    It’s not a friggin’ court case, David. You made the claim (or inferred) that David is your real name. I don’t believe you.

    But if YOU can prove it is your real name then fine, I’ll stop saying you’re nothing but a snivelling, chest thumping, bigotted coward hurling insults and crazy posts at others from the protection of an alias.

    Geddit, dumbarse?

  237. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    I have on may occasions been given a very hard time when I have raised the issue of someone’s true identity so I am not going to allow you or anyone else to make a big deal about about other posters identities. personally I have every reason to believe David is what he claims to be. in any case it has nothing to do with the argument here.
    I have decided to pull the pin on this thread as I think that it has gone as far as it can in exploring the issues pertaining to illegal boat arrivals and immigration. Thanks you for your very obvious passion on the topic and I say we shall see what actually happens because I really think that on a global level this is an issue that will not be solved by conspicuous compassion, and I have a feeling that there are going to be terrible consequences from the mad race to grow the population of this country beyond a sustainable number.
    Cheers Comrade.

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