Home » Leftism » Anti- Semitism » Geert Wilders’ Melbourne speech

Geert Wilders’ Melbourne speech

I hope that I won’t have any copyright problems for doing this but I’m going to post the entire  text of Geert Wilders’ Melbourne speech here for the benefit of the Sandpit’s readers:

Dear friends,

Finally, I am here.
I am very happy to be in your beautiful and magnificent country, Australia.
400 years ago, the Dutch were the first Europeans to discover Australia. They named this land after their own and called it New Holland. So, here I am today, a visitor from the Netherlands, with a message from the old Holland to the New Holland.

I am here to tell you how Islam is changing the Netherlands and Western Europe beyond recognition. We are in the process of losing our culture, our identity, our freedom.
I am also here to warn Australia about the true nature of Islam. It is not just a religion as many people mistakenly think; it is primarily a dangerous totalitarian ideology.
I am here to warn you that what is happening in my native country might soon happen in Australia too, if you fail to be vigilant.

And I am here to advice you on how to turn the tide of Islamization. Inform people. Confront them with the truth. Don’t be afraid to speak. Use your right of free speech.
Because if you do not use it, you will lose it. And find and elect politicians who are not afraid to speak the truth about Islam.

Before I start, allow me to thank the Q Society for inviting me to your country. Thank you Debbie, Andrew, Ralf, and all the other volunteers for making this visit possible. Debbie never booked so many conference rooms in her life as in the past few weeks, and never had so many cancellations. Debbie, you are my hero. You have had a very hard time. But I bet you think twice about ever inviting me to Australia again.

The Q Society and its volunteers embody the courage for which Australians are known in Europe.
We, Europeans, owe our freedom in part to the thousands of young and brave Australians who fought, and died, at Passiondale and at Gallipoli.

These Australians – your fathers and grandfathers – persevered against all odds.
And so did the Q Society, despite the efforts of the governing establishment to discourage my visit.

First, Chris Bowen, the then federal minister of Immigration, had me wait five long weeks for a visa, forcing us to postpone my visit from October to February.
Then, the minister implicitly warned people to stay away from my speeches by writing a newspaper article in the Australian saying that I was a fringe figure from the far-right.

Western Australia’s premier Colin Bartnett went as far as to tell the media that I am “not welcome” in his state. I wonder how many public figures in the world have already been told that they are not welcome in Western Australia. Trying to find this out, I googled the words “not welcome in Western Australia.” Guess what? Only two items popped up: “Geert Wilders” and “US nuclear base.”

Private enterprises followed the example by boycotting my visit, declining the booking of venues, turning down adds, and refusing banking services.
But the Q Society did not give up.

Thank you also to La Mirage here in Melbourne, where we are gathered today, for making this evening possible.

So, here I am, with a message that your political leaders do not want you to hear.

But first, let me tell you who I am and how I live.

I am an elected politician from one of the oldest democracies in the world. I am the leader of the Party for Freedom, the largest Dutch opposition party. We have almost 1 million voters in a country that is known for its tolerance. I am not a fringe figure; I am not far-right either. Political opponents brought me to court, accusing me of hate speech and discrimination. But the court in Amsterdam after an ordeal that lasted 2 years cleared me of all charges.

Earlier, I have spoken in the premises of the United States Congress, the British House of Lords, the Danish Parliament and other government premises. I participated in conferences in the U.S. and Canada, Germany, Italy, and elsewhere, with people none of which belong to the far-right.

For the past 9 years I have been living under round the clock police protection. Wherever I go, plainclothes policemen go with me. I live in a government safe house, bulletproof and safer than the National Bank. I wish I had their money. Earlier my wife and I have even lived in army barracks and prison cells just to be safe from assassins.

Why do I need this protection? I am not a president or king, I am a simple parliamentarian.

I have been marked for death. I was placed under police protection in November 2004 when the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh was slaughtered in broad daylight because he had criticized Islam. A few hours later, the police found a letter written by van Gogh’s assassin threatening to kill me and my colleague Ayaan Hirsi Ali as well. We, too, had been critical of Islam, especially through our work in parliament.

Ayaan has since left for America, but I continue to candidly express my views about Islam in the Dutch Parliament and in the public debate around the world.
But it is not I who am important here. What is at stake is the defense of our freedom.

Only two weeks ago, a good friend of mine, Lars Hedegaard, a journalist from Denmark, survived an assassination attempt. A foreigner tried to shoot him through the head. Why? For the simple reason that Lars is critical of Islam.

Europe has become a dangerous place for those who criticize Islam. So many people rooted in a culture entirely different from our own Judeo-Christian and humanist tradition have entered Europe that now Europe’s identity and its culture are in danger.

Australian tourists visiting our major European cities today can still see the postcard views of the Eiffel tower, Buckingham Palace and the Amsterdam canals, but if they are not careful and walk too far, they risk entering a dangerous Islamic ghetto.

Islam has creating a parallel society within our cities. Shortly before her death in 2006, the
well-known Italian author Oriana Fallaci wrote: “In each one of our cities, there is a second city, a state within the state, a government within the government. A Muslim city, a city ruled by the Koran.” – end of quote.

The Islamic presence is changing the outlook and the character of Europe. In some urban neighbourhoods, Islamic regulations are already being enforced. Women’s rights are being trampled. We are confronted with headscarves and burqa’s, polygamy, female genital mutilation, honor-killings.

Five years ago, Michael Nazir-Ali, the Anglican bishop of Rochester, England, who is himself of Muslim descent, already warned for Islamic no-go zones. “Those of a different faith or race may find it difficult to live or work there because of hostility to them and even the risk of violence,” he said.

Last month, a group called Muslim Patrol posted a video on Youtube showing how they control an entire neighborhood of the British capital London. They intimidate people, force women to cover up, harass gays, confiscate alcohol, and forbid non-Muslims to walk past the local mosque.

Two years ago, a high ranking German police officer admitted that no-go zones outside police authority are proliferating all over Germany. We can witness this phenomenon all over Europe.

I used to live in Kanaleneiland, a suburb of Utrecht which, during the 20 years that I lived there, transformed into a very dangerous neighborhood for non-Muslims. I have been robbed. On several occasions I had to run for safety.

The same transformation has happened in parts of Amsterdam, Rotterdam and other cities, in the Netherlands, as well as in cities in Belgium, Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Sweden and other countries.

In August 2011, a Dutch newspaper sent its war correspondent – yes, you heard right, its war correspondent – to the Dutch city of Helmond to investigate reports that Islamic thugs were harassing local residents. His article detailed terrible abuses suffered by the non-Muslim population, including the sexual harassment of young girls. The locals complained that the police are afraid of the thugs.

In France, the authorities have drawn up a list of 751 so-called “sensible urban areas.” These are the lost territories of the French Republic, even though a staggering 5 million people, or 8 percent of the total French population, live in them.

In Brussels, the capital of the European Union, 25 percent of the population is Muslim. The city has several predominantly Islamic districts. Police officers entering these neighborhoods have been shot at with Kalashnikovs. Three years ago, the police union acknowledged that there are boroughs in Brussels which – I quote – “officers do not dare enter in uniforms.” End of quote.

In my own country, Moroccans are the largest ethnic group among Islamic immigrants. Almost every week there are incidents with Moroccan youths. In the Netherlands, 65 percent of all the Moroccan boys between 12 and 23 years have have already been arrested at least once by the police.

The list of violent incidents involving Moroccans, whether occurring in our streets, our schools, our shopping malls or on our sports fields, is endless. But the victims are almost never Moroccans or Muslims.

I am not exaggerating. I tell it like it is.

Two years ago, Germany’s Family Minister Kristina Schröder advocated – I quote – “an open debate about racist Muslims.” End of quote.

Last September, Jean-Francois Copé, the former French Budget Minister under president Sarkozy, also pointed out that – I quote “racism is growing in our cities.”
Copé, too, was referring to the surge of Islamic violence against ethnic Frenchmen.

Islam has brought us jihad: intimidation, violence.

Then there is the phenomenon of nonviolent jihad. The rise of Islam also means the rise of Islamic sharia law in our judicial systems. In Europe, we have sharia wills, sharia schools, sharia banks. The introduction of elements of sharia law in our societies creates a system of legal apartheid. Sharia law systematically discriminates between groups of people.

Britain now has official sharia courts. One of these courts settled the inheritance of a man whose estate had to be divided between his children. It gave the sons twice as much as the daughters, in accordance with the Koranic pronouncement that a woman is only worth half a man. This is a disgrace. In our civilization, men and women used to be treated as equals before the law. In contemporary Europe, this is no longer the case.

Sharia law also affects our fundamental freedoms, such as freedom of speech. Sharia law forbids criticism of Islam. This is considered blasphemy. The penalty is death.
That is why I have been marked for death. That is why people like me and Lars Hedegaard are in so much trouble; that is why three years ago a man with an axe tried to chop the cartoonist Kurt Westergaard to pieces; that is why we, and Salman Rushdie and others are living in hiding. Because if you criticize Islam, you pay a very high price.

This brings me to the second major topic of my speech. The nature of Islam.

Is it not strange that we, who are not Muslims, are punished by Islam for breaking Islamic rules? Religious rules do not apply to people who do not belong to a specific religion, do they? Indeed, a religion – every religion – should be voluntary. Yet, Islam imposes its rules on everyone.

Why does sharia law alter our Western secular legal system in such a dramatic fashion? The answer is that rather than a religion, Islam is a totalitarian political ideology which aims to impose its legal system on the whole society.
Islam is an ideology because it is political rather than religious: Islam is an ideology because it aims for an Islamic state and wants to impose Islamic Sharia law on all of us.
Islam is totalitarian because it is not voluntary. It orders that people who leave Islam must be killed.

Contrary to all the other religions – real religions – Islam also lays obligations on non-members.

Your fellow Australian, the theologian Mark Durie has said – I quote: “Islam classically demands a political realization, and specifically one in which Islam rules over all other religions, ideologies and competing political visions. Islam is not unique in having a political vision or speaking to politics, but it is unique in demanding that it alone must rule the political sphere.” – end of quote.

We can see what Islam has in store for us if we watch the fate of the Christians in the Islamic world, such as the Copts in Egypt, the Maronites in Lebanon, the Assyrians in Iraq, and Christians anywhere in the Islamic and Arab world. The cause of their suffering is Islam. Indeed, the only place in the Middle East where Christians are safe to be Christians is Israel. Israel is also the only democracy in the Middle East, a beacon of light in an area of total darkness. We should all support Israel.

My friends, I always make a distinction between Muslims and Islam. Most Muslims are moderate, but the ideology of Islam is dangerous. The moderates are the captives of a totalitarian system. If only they could liberate themselves from the Islamic culture of fatalism and apathy, then the most beautiful things could happen to them and the whole world.

I have travelled the Islamic world extensively. I have visited countries such as Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia. I was overwhelmed by the kindness, friendliness and helpfulness of many people there. They are often good people, but they are the captives of Islam. These people are not free; they live under the yoke of Islamic sharia law. If they leave Islam, they sign their own death verdict.

Thirty years ago, I travelled from Israel to Egypt. This trip made a huge impression on me. Israel and Egypt are neighbours, with the same climate, the same natural riches, similar resources, the same potential. And yet Egypt is poor, while Israel is wealthy.

Freedom is the key to prosperity; and Islam deprives people of it.

However, as long as Islam remains dominant, there can be no real freedom.
Just look at what is happening in the Arab countries. The so-called Arab Spring quickly degraded into a freezing Arab Winter. The situation of women and non-Muslims, such as Christians, worsened dramatically.

In Islamic countries, democracy does not lead to freedom. Islam keeps people entrapped in a mental prison. A survey by the American Pew Center found that even though 59 percent of Egyptians prefer democracy to any other form of government, 84 percent want the death penalty for apostates.

Despite the presence of many moderate Muslims, the growing Islamic presence in Europe is causing huge problems. Europe’s Islamic lobby is increasingly assertive.

It has successfully pressured European politicians into implementing pro-Islamic policies, institutionalizing sharia practices, adopting anti-Israeli positions, and restricting freedom of speech under the pretext that telling the truth about Islam is a hate speech crime.

In the Netherlands, we have prison cells with arrows on the floor directing towards Mecca; prisons where only halal food is served; Islamic lawyers who do not have to rise when the judge enters the courtroom; schools that close on Islamic holidays; works of art that are removed from public buildings because they might offend Islam; separate swimming hours, separate theatre performances, separate courses for men and women; nurses in homes for the elderly who are exempt for treating men because Islam forbids women to touch men; etcetera.

Islamic and pro-Islamic groups drag people to court simply because they exercise their legal right of freedom of speech. This is called legal jihad. People like myself, Lars Hedegaard in Denmark, and countless others from Canada to Austria have been subjected to endless time, energy and money consuming trials for speaking the truth.

To understand the nature of Islam, one also has to understand its founder, Muhammad, the author of the Koran. It is uncomfortable for people to speak about it, but we must because he is the example of 1.5 billion people. According to Islam, Muhammad is the perfect man whose life must be imitated. The consequences are horrendous and can be witnessed on a daily basis.

Islam presents Muhammad as the role model to 1.5 billion people. Fortunately, the majority of them do not follow this example. The fact that Islam presents him as the model man obliges us, however, to talk about his character and the things he did.

Islamic texts such as the Sira, Muhammad’s biography, and the Hadiths, the descriptions of Muhammad’s life from testimonies of his contemporaries, show that he was the savage leader of a gang of robbers from Medina. Without scruples they looted, raped and murdered.

The sources describe orgies of savagery where hundreds of people’s throats were cut, hands and feet chopped off, eyes cut out, entire tribes massacred. An example is the extinction of the Jews in Medina in 627. Muhammad himself participated in chopping off their heads. The women and children were sold as slaves. As you know, Muhammad married the 6 year old girl Aisha whom consummated when she was 9 years old. In our countries today, such a pedophile would be sent to jail for a very long time.

Islamic violence does not spring from social and political grievances, as politically-correct sources claim. Islamic violence springs directly from Islam and Muhammad’s example.

Because Muhammad lied and cheated in order to advance Islam, some followers feel entitled to do the same. Islam even has a word for this kind of lying. It is called taqqiya.
Because Muhammad spread Islam through acts of terror, some of his followers do the same.

Because Muhammad established an Islamic state, some of his followers see it as their duty to do the same.

Because Muhammad had his critics and the critics of his Islamic state murdered, some of his followers regard it as their duty to kill everyone who speaks his mind about Muhammad and Islam.

It is no coincidence that all the Islamic states in the world demand that freedom of speech be curtailed and that criticism of Islam and its prophet be forbidden. And yet, it is our duty to speak out and tell the truth.

Anyone who voices criticism of Islam and Muhammad is in grave personal danger. And whoever attempts to escape from the influence of Islam and Muhammad risk the death penalty. We cannot continue to accept this state of affairs. A public debate about the true nature and character of Muhammad is badly needed how uncomfortable it might be to some people.

Understanding Islam and Muhammad, also learns us important lessons about our present situation. That is the third major topic I want to address: the lessons for Australia.

It is important that you realize that in our present days Islam is spreading predominantly through the method of immigration from Islamic countries. Muhammad himself conquered Medina through the method of immigration. Or Hijra as it is called in Islam.
Hijra is an instrument of jihad. It is an instrument that Islam uses to dominate the free world.

So, in order to stop Islamization, we should stop as we try to do in the Netherland where my party sees it as its first priority to stop immigration from Islamic countries. Enough is enough.

I realize that this may be a difficult message in a country such as Australia. Your country was built on immigration. Over one in four of Australia’s 22 million inhabitants were born overseas.

They came to Australia from many countries and continents. They were welcomed because they contributed. They have strengthened Australia.

Dutch immigrants, like countless immigrants from other countries, have helped to turn Australia into what it is today. Australia is home to over 300,000 people of Dutch descent.
These Dutchmen never caused any problems because they did not bring along an ideology which prohibits friendship with non-Dutchmen, which commands them to hate non-Dutchmen, and to submit or kill non-Dutchmen.

My countrymen did not come to impose their own culture upon the non-Dutch Australians; they assimilated into Australian society and, in doing so, they enriched it.

Today, Europe, too, is confronted with millions of immigrants. Unfortunately, many of these immigrants are not strengthening nor enriching our societies, because many of them refuse to assimilate and they create a parallel society within our nations. A very large number of these immigrants have moved to Europe from Islamic countries. Europe is in the middle of an Islamization process, driven by immigration from North Africa, Turkey, the Middle East and other parts of the Islamic world, such as Somalia.

The Islamic countries belong to the Organization of the Islamic Conference. It is the largest voting bloc and the biggest Israel haters in the United Nations. In 1990, it adopted the Cairo Declaration on human rights in Islam, in which human rights is bound by Sharia law. It also calls for the death penalty for people who leave Islam or insult Islam, Muhammad or the Koran.

There is a second priority which we have in our party platform. This is to counter Sharia or Islamic law in our own country.

Let me explain. When people move to another country, they integrate, they blend in, they assimilate. That is the natural order of things.
When immigrants from Islamic countries settle in Western countries, they move from an unfree society to a free society. People always prefer freedom over tyranny. That is human nature.

In the normal order of things, immigration from Islamic countries would weaken Islam.
Their contact with Western freedoms, would lead Islamic people to abandon Islam. However, through the creation of a Sharia-based parallel society – we see it happen all over Europe, be careful that it does not happen in Australia – Islam manages to continue its control over its captives.

Islamic societies – including Islamic enclaves in the West—exert tight social control that is indicative of the totalitarian character of Islam.

My friends, I am here to warn Australia. Learn from the European lesson. The more Islam you get into your society, the less civilized it becomes and the less free.

How did the Europeans get into their present situation? It is partly our own fault because we have foolishly adopted the ideology of cultural relativism. Cultural relativism is far worse than multiculturalism. Cultural relativism is the biggest political disease that we face in our countries today.

I am proud to say – I do not care whether people like it or not – that our culture which is based on Judeo-Christian and humanist values such as liberty, democracy and tolerance, is far better than the Islamic culture. I am proud of it.

We should not close our eyes to the fact that all over Europe and Australia, new mosques and Islamic centers are under construction. In any major city in Europe you will encounter halal shops and women in headscarves and burkas.

Two years ago, there was the case of Carnita Matthews, the Islamic convert in a burka, who escaped a jail sentence in New South Wales because the authorities could not prove that she was the person in a burka making a false statement to the police.

Open the pages of our newspapers and you will read horrific stories of women being trampled, female genital mutilation and honor killings in our own back yards.

We have to speak out, because it is the only tool we have got. We stand for our convictions, but we never use violence. We abhor violence. The reason why we reject Islam is exactly Islam’s violent nature. We believe in democracy.

We cherish the tradition of Aleksander Solzhenitsyn, Jelena Bonner, Lech Walesa and Ronald Reagan. These heroes defeated a totalitarian ideology by the power of their conviction and by using no other means than their words.

As the ex-Muslim and Islam-critic Ali Sina said: “We don’t raise a sword against darkness; we lit a light.” So it is. We lit the light of the truth. And the truth will set us free. The truth that while Muslims can embrace freedom, Islam cannot.

Let no one tell you that Islam respects freedom. Freedom and Islam are incompatible.

Let no one tell you that Islam is a religion of peace. Islam is an ideology of violence.
Let no one tell you that you should tolerate the intolerant. We should not tolerate the intolerant and start becoming intolerant to those who are intolerant to us.

We should stop the building of new mosques. Enough is enough.

We want no more immigration from Islamic countries for we have enough Islam already.

If you are a criminal immigrant you should be expelled! If immigrants do not commit crimes, they are equal to anyone else. But if they commit crimes, they should be sent packing.

Very often, the appeasers are the governments who are afraid of Islamic radicals threatening violence and riots against anyone who dares to confront their intolerant ideas.
What we are witnessing today is how freedom dies. It dies because the political elite is cowardly unwilling to defend it. We must not accept that.

Indeed, my friends, we must change course.

We must struggle every single day against the rising tide of Islamization, even when our opponents brand us as extremists, even when they take us to court, and treathen to kill us, we should continue speaking the truth.

If we do not oppose Islam, we will lose everything: our freedom, our identity, our democracy, our rule of law, and all our liberties.

We must end the disease of cultural relativism and proudly proclaim: Our Western culture, based on Judeo-Christian and humanist principles, is far better than the Islamic culture. Only when we are convinced of that, will we be willing to defend our own identity.

You must demand that immigrants accept Australia’s values, and not the other way round.

We must support the persecuted Christians in the Islamic world. We must also stand with Israel. Israel is in jihad’s frontline. Because by helping Israel to survive, we help ourselves.

But most important of all – and this is the final message of my speech – most important of all, we must defend freedom of speech. Everything else depends on it.

We cannot correct our mistakes if we are not allowed to talk about them.

There is reason for concern if the erosion of our freedom of speech is the price we must pay to accommodate Islam. There is something badly wrong if those who deny that Islam is a problem do not grant us the right to talk about the issue.

Public discussion should not be stifled by threats; On the contrary, public discussion should be promoted. And everyone should be allowed to freely express his opinions. That is why Europe and Australia are in desperate need of an equivalent of America’s First Amendment which guarantees us a maximum of freedom of speech.

Friends, there is hope if we overcome our fears and begin to speak the truth.

If we remain silent, we are certain to go from defeat to defeat; But if we speak the truth, we will be able to turn the tide and it will be our first victory of many.

Yes, my friends, there is hope. But only if we outgrow our fears and dare speak the truth.
As Ronald Reagan said “The future doesn’t belong to the fainthearted.”
The future freedom of Australia, the liberties of your children – they depend on you.
The ANZAC spirit helped keep Europe free in the past; the ANZAC spirit will keep you free in the future. Be as brave as your fathers, and you will survive.

There is hope because we are not alone. We still speak for the majority. While the elite has largely fallen for cultural relativism, the people have not.

In my country, the Netherlands, 56 percent of the population see Islam as the biggest threat to our national identity.
In Britain, a survey last month showed that the public regard immigration as the biggest issue facing British society.
In Germany, 64 percent hold that Islam is violent and 70 percent that it is fanatical.
In France, 74 percent are convinced that Islam is intolerant and not compatible with French society.

These people are not wrongheaded, they are not extremists; they stand for decency, common sense and liberty. We must speak on their behalf. We must encourage them. We must tell them not to give up and not to lose heart.

My friends, always remember that our voice is the voice of liberty; it is the voice of liberation.
Let us defend our own freedoms. And let us support Muslims – and especially the suppressed Muslim women – who want to free themselves from the yoke of Islam.
Let them join the worldwide community of freedom, renounce Sharia and Islam. And be free, as we are free.
It would be good if Muslims leave Islam for Christianity or atheism or whatever they want, as long as it is not Islam.

Friends, though we live thousands of miles apart, we – Australians and Europeans – belong to a common civilization. We share the ideas and ideals of our common Judeo-Christian and humanist heritage. We must help each other in the struggle for this heritage, because Islam is a threat to Europe as well as to Australia.

If we want to preserve our nations – our homes – and our freedoms and pass them on to our children, we must stand together, shoulder to shoulder, with Israel and the other nations in the West.

We have to rely upon each other and help each other in the struggle against a common adversary. We must stand together. Otherwise we will be swept away by Islam.

I believe, my friends, that we will stand together, that we will stand firm, that we will not submit, and that we will survive. Why?
Because we stand for the truth.
And the truth will prevail.

Thank you.

I am particularly  interested to hear what those who usually provide excuses and apologia for Islam have to say about this speech, though sadly I do have some idea what they will say.

Cheers Comrades

NoSharia-NoJihad

About these ads

99 Comments

  1. It is true that genital mutilation of little girls is carried out by Muslims in Australia – this is an outrage. It should be discussed openly and those responsible gaoled. There are doctors in this country participating in this barbaric custom. Wake up Australia!

  2. GD says:

    An alternate title for this post could be “Geert Wilders’ Magnificent Melbourne Speech”.

  3. Iain Hall says:

    latinamericanotebook
    You are correct about FGM but I personally think the same about mutilating infant boys for religious reasons
    GD
    It certainly is a good speech and I can’t help wondering just what the likes of Damian Doyle has to say on it.

  4. Iain Hall says:

    Nick Cohen posted this link on his twitter account GD well worth a read on the subject of the British Labour party’s err, “response” to Islam and it makes sobering reading.

  5. Ray Dixon says:

    We don’t need ‘advice’ and ‘warnings’ from bigoted, big-headed (literally – I mean look at the size of that scone), narrow-minded racists like Wilders to run our immigration programs. If he’s unhappy with islamic infiltration of his own country and ours he should take the same advice I’ve given to the likes of GD and emigrate to New Zealand. Honestly, this achieves nothing and even conservative leaders like Abbott & Barnett (from WA) won’t have a bar of this bloke’s hate speech. Holding Wilders out as some kind of hero or saviour (which is what you’re doing) is like letting someone else do your thinking for you. When’s the freakin’ last time you had anything whatsoever to complain about, let alone fear, from muslims in Australia?

  6. Iain Hall says:

    Did you actually read the speech Ray?

  7. Ray Dixon says:

    As much as I could stomach, Iain. I spead-read long-winded crap like that – it’s not hard, because so much is repeated – and you can get the gist pretty early in. Colour it as you will, Iain, but the whole tenor and purpose of Wilder’s rhetoric is to stir up hatred against people of a certain culture. Of course he’s right to be outraged about Holland ‘losing its culture’ – I mean, legal dope cafes and prostitutes in the shop windows in Amsterdam is such an ideal role model for the rest of the world to follow.

  8. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    My wife is of Dutch extraction and as such I have had a fair bit of contact with the Dutch members of her family and the way that you characterise Dutch culture is rather far from reality, that said though you can’t escape the fact that Wilders is under constant threat of assassination for criticising Islam, so when you balance his views against those he criticises I fail to see just how you can’t see that the followers of Islam are far more deserving of our disdain for their bigotry and intolerance, rather than the pillorying of a man who dares to say that there is a problem with this ideology.

  9. Ray Dixon says:

    I forgot about windmills & clogs, Iain – the Dutch gave us those too. As for Wilders receiving death threats, I suggest that would happen to anyone doing the reverse – i.e. to any politician using his high profile to denigrate other cultures and peoples. He makes himself a target on purpose and then uses that to justify his opposition to those he preaches against. It’s like getting in the bull ring, waving a red flag and then (after the bull charges) saying, “see, I told you that bull was no good”.

  10. Iain Hall says:

    Here is another example of the way that the “religion of peace” imposes its values on the rest of us

  11. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    It is the essence of western liberalism that we should all be free to criticise or even”denigrate” all and sundry, we call that concept “free speech” and it is the cornerstone and foundation of our democracy. Yet followers of Islam and their demands for excessive deference to their religious prejudices place that concept and by extension our personal freedom at dire risk of being lost.

  12. Brian says:

    Iain, I can’t say I disagree with anything Wilders says about Islam itself. It is medieval, intolerant, reactionary, sexist and (in its more fundamentalist forms) oppressive and violent. But much like “GD” and yourself, Wilders has a lot of trouble distinguishing “Muslim fundamentalists” or “Muslim activists” from run-of-the-mill migrants. He claims to be at war with the ideas of Islam, and that’s fair enough… but his main beef seems to be with people who are different, entering his country and behaving differently to how he expects them to behave. That’s not “western liberalism”, it’s simple xenophobia.

    As always, Wilders neither demonstrates or even discusses the causal link between the ideology of Islam and the criminal or anti-social behaviours he describes here. If these Muslim immigrants are behaving as poorly as Wilders reckons, then I expect there are reasons for out that have little or nothing to do with Islam.

  13. Iain Hall says:

    Brian
    I think that you are naive to believe that Islamic culture has nothing to do with the problematic behaviour of “some” of its adherents The example that counters your claim very succinctly is the “rape gangs” who have been recently exposed and their members prosecuted in the UK. It is the Islamic attitudes to women that are writ large in the attitudes of the miscreants to women in general and English women in particular. Sadly we have had the example of the Bilal Scafe gang in Sydney exhibiting the same attitudes which suggests that problem is not at all a Britain only phenomena.

  14. Ray Dixon says:

    If Sophie Mirabella got up on her soap box and called for the banning of English migrants on the basis they don’t wash, that would be exercising free speech too, Iain. But how would that make you feel? Angry? Angry enough to want to punch her lights out? Maybe not, but I’m sure there’d be more than a few English migrants who would.

  15. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    It would make me feel utterly indifferent I just don’t care what others say about the English, we know that God is an Englishman because he had the choice and those lesser mortals who believe otherwise are just suffering deity envy. ;)

  16. Brian says:

    The example that counters your claim very succinctly is the “rape gangs” who have been recently exposed and their members prosecuted in the UK.

    Oh come off it Iain. I’m sure if you did a survey of the sex crimes and gang-related crimes in Australia over the past half century, you’d find a preponderance of white Anglo-Celtic perpetrators. Adrian Bayley wasn’t Muslim when he (allegedly) raped and killed Jill Meagher. The Anita Cobby killers weren’t Muslims. Paul Denyer wasn’t Muslim. The guy who murdered Daniel Morcombe wasn’t Muslim. I could go on ad nauseum.

    Very few if any rapists rape because of their religion. They do it because they are impulsive, anti-social, lawless and poorly brought up.

  17. Iain Hall says:

    Brian
    Have you read anything about the crimes I am referring to?

    Its not just opportunistic rape of a women that they have “found” on the streets its been rather different and DEFINITELY related to the way that Muslim Men and boys see women

    You just can’t pretend that Islamic culture is not a factor.
    Likewise there have been the riots and killings because of the cartoons depicting the prophet in a less than flattering light which may have been carried out by a “small minority” but those actions are largely endorsed by the majority of the Muslim Diaspora. As were various terrorist acts done in the name of Allah. Its inescapable that the very tenets of Islam bring it into stark conflict with our own liberal traditions and that those liberal traditions are being eroded in the face of the totalitarian mindset that is at the heart of Islam.

  18. Brian says:

    You’ve posted here before about these so-called Pakistani rape gangs. I called bullshit on the theory then and I do the same now.

    Raping young girls or grooming them for sex is not purely or even mainly an Islamic trait. It is happened among young men with cars, computers and mobile phones across the western world. Any claim that it’s only Muslims doing this is baloney. You have your head in the sand if you’re denying that white males aren’t doing it too. And they don’t have religion to blame or hide behind, so what’s their excuse?

    As the conversation generally goes here, you are prepared to accept or think the worst about Muslims, while overlooking or downplaying the anti-social behaviours of non-Muslims.

  19. Mr Wilders is entitled to come to this country and speak. This is a democracy. No one in a Muslim country can exercise the right to free speech. In my opinion, that is the important concept. We’ve also had the Chinese government telling us what we should and shouldn’t say. It is important we don’t kow tow to China; it is important that we protect freedom of expression. Muslims just have to tolerate criticism in this and any democratic society. I am a Catholic. We’re criticised all the time – and why shouldn’t the Church be criticised for any wrong-doing? Same applies to the Muslims with their mad behaviour. They can’t even get along with each other: look at Pakistan, Syria and Egypt. They just don’t “get” democracy. I think Mr Wilders is right: it’s totalitarian.

  20. Brian says:

    I don’t think anyone here is denying that Wilders a right to voice his opinions, either here or back in the Netherlands. I’m only suggesting that some of his fears are baseless and paranoid to the point of being hysterical.

  21. Craig says:

    Brian, if Wilders claims are irrationally based on fear, why don’t you walk at night in Bankstown, go to Wilders home suburb he grew up in and go for a walk on Saturday night. I bet you wouldn’t even catch a train at night in any city that goes past the ahem ghettoes…

    Realistically Islam is a majority 3rd world religion, 3rd world immigration is the main problem. As many first world countries are finding out the hard way due to irrational utopian liberal ideals. Strange how America is declining economically, geopolitically as it ‘s demographics change to 3rd worlder standards.

    Lets have a look at Norway, here’s a translation.

    http://www.friatider.se/norge-ingen-framtida-valfard-med-fortsatt-invandring

    Norge: ”Ingen framtida välfärd med fortsatt invandring”

    “Norway: “No future welfare if immigration continues”

    Published February 15, 2013 at 11:52

    OSLO. Either the Norwegian Government has to stop the massive influx of immigrants from the Third World – or the Norwegians will have to forget a future functioning welfare state. You just have to choose what you want, writes two Norwegian journalists in a notable debate article.

    “To maintain the current level of immigration in the coming decades while maintaining a generous welfare state today is not a realistic goal,” writes Hege Storhaug and Rita Karlsen, on NRK.no.

    The authors, who represent the Human Rights Service (HRS), suggest that the overseas migration has been a blank lottery ticket for Norwegian taxpayers.

    “Despite the fact that immigrant households have few people in retirement, they had still a deficit in the tax and benefit system, that is, they consume more welfare services than they pay in taxes. Households with Norwegian background, however, had a small surplus, “writes Storhaug and Karlsen and refers to new statistics from the HRS.

    According to the latest projections of population growth from the Norwegian Central Statistical Office (SSB), the Norwegians will be a minority in their own country within 30 years. In Oslo, where the Norwegians will be a minority of only 15 years, the liver is already more than half of the non-European immigrants on welfare.

    And as fewer and fewer Norwegians want to support more and more immigrants there will be no easy system to sustain any meaningful welfare system with basic social security, warns Storhaug and Karlsen, in spite of oil revenues.

    “As citizens, we should be able to expect that all politicians are kept a check on the national welfare accounts and had future generations in mind when policy is made in the coming years,” concluded the writers.” ”

    Bye, bye welfare state and hello revolution… Progressive Liberals and Progressive Conservatives have cultural death wish. Perhaps it’s fate. So mote it be.

  22. Iain Hall says:

    Brian
    I struggle to understand who you can think that Islam is “It is medieval, intolerant, reactionary, sexist and (in its more fundamentalist forms) oppressive and violent. ” and then also think that its followers won’t have that kind of mindset in on form or another. Sorry but your argument does not make sense because of this irreconcilable contradiction.

  23. Richard Ryan says:

    Yeah it was not Muslims who put Jews in the ovens—–it was so called Christians—-snigger snigger Bolt does not like when you give him that to digest—-The Stolen Generation Denier, is a Fxx-wit.

  24. Richard Ryan says:

    AS for Wilders he should not have been allowed into this country.

  25. Richard Ryan says:

    No free speech for Wilders—–that is my view.

  26. GD says:

    I take it you’re ok with free speech for this guy…

    He’s one of the speakers at the “Peace Conference and Exhibition” at the Melbourne Showgrounds in March.

  27. Brian says:

    I struggle to understand who you can think that Islam is “It is medieval, intolerant, reactionary, sexist and (in its more fundamentalist forms) oppressive and violent. ” and then also think that its followers won’t have that kind of mindset in on form or another. Sorry but your argument does not make sense because of this irreconcilable contradiction.

    It’s only irreconcilable in your mind, Iain. I am not so foolish as to think that every Muslim is a potential terrorist, or that I should have to hate anyone who happens to be Muslim. I am quite able to differentiate between stupid and dangerous ideas and the people who happen be sucked in by them. Wilders and his followers, on the other hand, seem to take pleasure in hating Islam so they can hate foreigners. That’s essentially all this speech is: hate and fear.

  28. GD says:

    Brian, can you, or Ray, point to any statement in Wilder’s speech that is espousing ‘hate and fear’?

    No you can’t.

    On the other hand, influential islamists in Australia are peddling hate and fear constantly in mosques and meetings as my earlier video comment shows. The “Peace Conference and Exhibition” to be held in March in Melbourne is a farce. It is a cover for Islamic proselytising and subsequent sharia dominance of our nation.

    Read their lips, Brian, they aren’t attempting to integrate, they are attempting to overtake.

    Once again, Brian, can you, or Ray, point to any statement in Wilder’s speech that is espousing ‘hate and fear’?

    No you can’t. The ‘hate and fear’ is all on the side of the Islamists.

  29. Ray Dixon says:

    GD, the whole purpose of his speech is to encourage the banning of muslim immigration. I don’t have to point to any particular statement he made to prove he is encouraging hate & fear of muslims any more than I need to point to any particular statement you have made to know that both he and you are spreading hate and fear. It speaks for itself.

  30. Richard Ryan says:

    ” What a bunch of gutless pricks they are that they can’t put their names to what they are saying” Paul Howes

  31. Iain Hall says:

    Ray
    Please try to get beyond your advocacy for a big Australia and more immigration and consider precisely why Geert is saying that Islamic immigration is so corrosive to the host cultures:

    Because Muhammad lied and cheated in order to advance Islam, some followers feel entitled to do the same. Islam even has a word for this kind of lying. It is called taqqiya.
    Because Muhammad spread Islam through acts of terror, some of his followers do the same.

    Because Muhammad established an Islamic state, some of his followers see it as their duty to do the same.

    Because Muhammad had his critics and the critics of his Islamic state murdered, some of his followers regard it as their duty to kill everyone who speaks his mind about Muhammad and Islam.

    It is no coincidence that all the Islamic states in the world demand that freedom of speech be curtailed and that criticism of Islam and its prophet be forbidden. And yet, it is our duty to speak out and tell the truth.

    Anyone who voices criticism of Islam and Muhammad is in grave personal danger. And whoever attempts to escape from the influence of Islam and Muhammad risk the death penalty. We cannot continue to accept this state of affairs. A public debate about the true nature and character of Muhammad is badly needed how uncomfortable it might be to some people.

    As it says in the Christian bible “by their works ye shall know them” and that is writ large in Wilders’ speech, now you may call that “encouraging Hate and fear of Muslims” but that rather misses the point of just how we should consider that religion, personally I take them at their word when they claim that their faith will dominate the world, when they say that they want death for homosexuals or those who question any aspect of their faith, that they want free speech curtailed, that anyone who is a Jew should be killed. Its not “hate speech” to do this Ray its just good sense. Now at the risk of inviting a “Godwin’s” claim I have to ask you would you say that it was inciting ” Hate & fear” if Wilders was talking about the threat of the Nazis in pre war Germany? Of course you wouldn’t you would look at what they did and what they argued for and say that he was being a realist about the threat posed by the Nazi ideology with the evidence of their deeds (like Krystalnacht ect)and their words like that, every popular in the Muslim world, manifesto “Mein Kamphf” and then you would say Wilders may be right here.

    I have personally met quite a few Muslims in my life and most of them are warm kind and charming people but they used to say precisely the same sort of things about Joseph Menglae and he killed and tortured thousands of Jews. Your problem is that you are clearly compassionate about and willing to believe that the public face of Islam in this country *(and others) is a true reflection of the faith and what it both tells to and expects from its adherents, sadly its isn’t.

  32. Craigy says:

    So Waleed “Wally” Aly is a threat to Australia is he Iain?….. What do we do with him then?

    Please explain?

  33. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain,

    Just because in their backwards, third world countries, muslims might follow the teachings of Muhammad to the letter does not mean they will do likewise here in Australia. The fact is they do it there because they can, because it’s within their laws and accepted norms. But it’s not within our laws to behave that way and if any muslim immigrants try to defy our laws guess what happens? They get arrested, charged, convicted, jailed and (ultimately) deported. And guess what else? Because of that they don’t try to change us despite what you and boof-head Wilders so alarmingly claim.

    It is indeed spreading hate & fear to suggest that muslim immigrants will try to enforce their cultures, laws and way of life over the rest of us. Ask yourself why they’re emigrating here in the first place – would it be for much the same reason that your family emigrated to Australia in the 1960s, for a better life? I think so.

    There is not one single example of muslim ‘infiltration’ into Ausatralian society posing any threat to our way of life above and beyond the infiltration of: Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese and the Brits. This is discrimination pure & simple.

  34. Brian says:

    Brian, can you, or Ray, point to any statement in Wilder’s speech that is espousing ‘hate and fear’? No you can’t.

    You mean accusing Muslims (and in one case, Moroccans) of being responsible for most or all violent and sexual crime is not hateful? Claiming that Britain is now under sharia law, when it clearly is not, is not hateful or fear-mongering?

    The whole thing is a long winded diatribe against immigrants. It is filled with hyperbole, exaggeration and in some cases outright mistruths. It paints a false picture of Europe where people live under some kind of Islamic reign of terror. It suggests no answers other than halting all Muslim immigration. To argue that it is not hateful or fearful is just ridiculous.

  35. GD says:

    So Waleed “Wally” Aly is a threat to Australia is he Iain?

    Does anyone call Waleed Aly ‘Wally’? What a sad attempt to portray him as just one of the blokes, instead of the Islamist in sheep’s clothing that he is.

  36. GD says:

    Brian, and Ray, while you rail against Wilders’ speech you completely ignore the hate and anti-Australian sentiments in the above video and many others of its ilk. You are incensed that Wilders is speaking in Australia but unfazed by the up-coming ‘Peace Conference’. Your moral selectivity is glaringly obtuse.

  37. Craigy says:

    Ha ha ha …….This is going to be fun Nigel…

  38. Brian says:

    You are incensed that Wilders is speaking in Australia

    Well that’s just more evidence of your inability to read what other people have written. I’m not “incensed” by it and I haven’t “railed” against it. I simply don’t agree with a good deal of it. Wilders is entitled to come here and say what he likes. Just as I am entitled to call BS on it.

    And your tactic of defending the actions of one hate-mongering ratbag by pointing to another hate-mongering ratbag and shouting “Look at them, they’re doing it too” proves absolutely nothing. Why don’t you provide some concrete evidence that Muslims are changing our way of life, instead of just crying about a few tub-thumping maniacs who most Muslims pay no attention to?

  39. Iain Hall says:

    Well I for one don’t have any bone to pick with Waleed Ali Craigy, he does appear to be an eminently reasonable bloke, however I would just like to reiterate what GD was saying about his citations.
    Ray

    It is indeed spreading hate & fear to suggest that muslim immigrants will try to enforce their cultures, laws and way of life over the rest of us. Ask yourself why they’re emigrating here in the first place – would it be for much the same reason that your family emigrated to Australia in the 1960s, for a better life? I think so.

    Sadly Ray that has been the experience overseas once the Muslim population reaches a certain critical mass they seek to change the host society to suit themselves, often in ways that are at odds with the western liberal tradition, we are not there yet but you just can’t pretend that it won’t happen here.

    Brian

    You mean accusing Muslims (and in one case, Moroccans) of being responsible for most or all violent and sexual crime is not hateful?

    The question for you is can you produce the evidence that Wilders is wrong about the Crime statistics in his native Holland? because if you can’t then he is just making an uncontentious statement of fact.

    Claiming that Britain is now under sharia law, when it clearly is not, is not hateful or fear-mongering?

    That is not precisely what he said Brian the quote is:

    Britain now has official sharia courts. One of these courts settled the inheritance of a man whose estate had to be divided between his children. It gave the sons twice as much as the daughters, in accordance with the Koranic pronouncement that a woman is only worth half a man. This is a disgrace. In our civilization, men and women used to be treated as equals before the law. In contemporary Europe, this is no longer the case.

    This is likewise uncontested factually correct information and frankly I don’t think that it is at all “hateful” to report the truth.

  40. Brian says:

    The question for you is can you produce the evidence that Wilders is wrong about the Crime statistics in his native Holland? because if you can’t then he is just making an uncontentious statement of fact.

    I am not in the habit of disproving bullshit, Iain. He is making the argument so he should be providing the evidence. And perhaps you should be more discerning with what you read, rather than just accepting something as gospel just because some wandering Islamophobe says it and you happen to like the sound of it.

    This is likewise uncontested factually correct information and frankly I don’t think that it is at all “hateful” to report the truth.

    There is no “official Sharia law” in Britain. There are mandated Muslim-run courts that rule on matters of civil law where parties agree to be bound by them. They have no force of law otherwise. That is the fact of the matter. Britons are subject to Sharia law like non-indigenous Australians are subject to Koori law, i.e. not at all. While I don’t agree with separate court systems for different religious or ethnic groups, to suggest that Britain is at risk of oppression from Sharia law is just an outright lie, and anyone who believes that needs a reality check.

  41. Iain, your answers are rational and calm, in the face of some very nutty commentators. I congratulate you.

  42. Brian says:

    latinamericanotebook, given that you have contributed precisely zero to this conversation, dropping in to call people “very nutty” is fairly childish.

    If you have something of worth to contribute, do so. Otherwise your opinions are meaningless.

  43. Craigy says:

    Just giving Nigel a bit of his own back Iain…He is tool and always plays the man….Anyway, he has published his own name via his twitter account so what’s the problem?…You always used that as the reason for outing Jeremy, that he had put his own name up, Nigel’s done the same so why delete my posts?

  44. Brian, I don’t need your permission to comment. My comment was addressed to Iain. You seem to have a problem with free speech and democracy. You should adopt a more rational tone – copy Iain.

  45. Brian says:

    This is a discussion thread. Your “comment to Iain” can be seen by everyone. If you want to tell Iain how great he is, and you don’t want others to comment on that, then send him an e-mail. And I don’t have any problem with free speech. People can say what they like. You can say others are “pretty nutty” if you think it’s a good idea, just as I can say your opinions thus far are absolutely meaningless.

  46. Iain Hall says:

    Because it was clear to me that you were not “playing nice” Craigy its as simple as that.
    As for Jeremy he is right off my radar these days.

  47. Iain Hall says:

    Brian

    I am not in the habit of disproving bullshit, Iain. He is making the argument so he should be providing the evidence. And perhaps you should be more discerning with what you read, rather than just accepting something as gospel just because some wandering Islamophobe says it and you happen to like the sound of it.

    He is making a speech and citing proper research based upon empirical facts Brian. We can argue about how those facts may be interpreted but you just can not sustain your argument that because Wilders says something it must be either tainted or deliberately misleading.

    There is no “official Sharia law” in Britain. There are mandated Muslim-run courts that rule on matters of civil law where parties agree to be bound by them. They have no force of law otherwise. That is the fact of the matter. Britons are subject to Sharia law like non-indigenous Australians are subject to Koori law, i.e. not at all. While I don’t agree with separate court systems for different religious or ethnic groups, to suggest that Britain is at risk of oppression from Sharia law is just an outright lie, and anyone who believes that needs a reality check.

    As it happens I don’t agree with any religiously or culturally based “court system” to decide any issues in our secular society, further as I recall the care alluded to here the female members of the family involved did not ‘consent” to the process at all.

  48. Iain Hall says:

    latinamericanotebook
    thanks very much for that acknowledgement,I like to be very chilled in they way that I approach even the most contentious topics ;)

  49. Brian says:

    Iain, that link you posted at least has some credible research behind it. But Wilders is not simply citing those reports; he is giving extremist interpretations of them. He is not offering up “uncontentious facts” as you have suggested. Even the research itself acknowledges this:

    Dutch politician Geert Wilders has taken Jurgens’ analysis one step further by arguing that Moroccans are not integrating because they do not want to. He has told Parliament that Moroccans are in the Netherlands not to integrate but rather to “subjugate the Dutch and to rule over them.”

    This is why Wilders is a pariah in Europe. He makes outlandish statements about real problems. How the hell does he know that the Moroccans want to take over Holland? Has he ever talked to Dutch Moroccans about this? And what evidence does he have that Islam or Islamic ideology is at the core of these anti-social behaviours, when it could be down to more fundamental problems like language barriers, poor education, disassociation, cultural isolation and unemployment?

    History has shown repeatedly that large groups of migrants often have difficulty acclimatising to a new country. The short term outcomes are often ghettoisation, unemployment and crime. I have never seen any compelling evidence that these problems are wholly or even mainly caused by religion, although religion of course may become a ‘safe harbour’ for them.

  50. Craigy says:

    Iain, I made a reasonable comment to Nigel and it was deleted…It called bullish*t on his comment aimed at Wally, who I happen to have worked with. Nigel is a coward who won’t admit when he is wrong and he was insulting a good Australian with his Islamist slur…..Care to explain why he deleted my comment, hmmmm….If it’s because I’m using his real name, well, that should be fine…I’m just following your rules based on the excuses you used to out Jeremy Sear so what’s the problem?

  51. Brian says:

    Who is Nigel?

  52. Craigy says:

    GD…just Google gigdiary and guitar …..

  53. Craigy says:

    See how wingnuts love free speech….

  54. Brian says:

    Oh right, I see now. Just thought I’d missed something.

  55. Brian says:

    See how wingnuts love free speech

    They love it until you insist on seeing evidence, Craigy. Then they either get insulting (see “very nutty” above) or they disappear.

  56. GD says:

    Fair enough Craigy, although I don’t identify myself on twitter. There are plenty of other sources though. I hope your day at work was productive.

  57. Craigy says:

    Thanks Nige…Yes I did have a productive day, nice of you to ask. My quick Google and posts here took all of 5 minutes..

    The twitter thing with your name in it was some kind of ‘best of twitter’ page that popped up in the search results when I entered Gigdiary and Guitar…and your name was right there….It isn’t coming up the same way now…

    Anyway, I don’t know why you hide if your just a muso man….But I won’t make any more of it GD as you must have your reasons….

    I do wish you wouldn’t attack good people like Wally with your BS though, that’s pretty low.

  58. Iain Hall says:

    Ah glad to see that you two have made up :)

    That said Craigy its not your mate Wally who is the problem its guys like this:

    or this guy

    and attitudes to women are, well to be kind, patronising at best, barbaric by our standards, but definitely not one of equality:

    and sadly they are far more influential than you think they are.

  59. GD says:

    much like “GD” and yourself, Wilders has a lot of trouble distinguishing “Muslim fundamentalists” or “Muslim activists” from run-of-the-mill migrants

    I’d agree with that, Brian. While ‘fundamentalists’ reveal themselves in their final hour, until then they are seemingly invisible in the broader islamic community.

    Healing, reparation and conciliation with Western culture can only take place when the wider Muslim community takes a stand against the extremists in their midst. Turning a blind eye to the ‘terror’ in their midst, pretending that weekly mosque teachings aren’t subversive to the cultural and constitutional workings of the host country yet all the while sucking on the teat of Western welfare? That isn’t assimilation. That isn’t even integration. It is taking advantage of successful western countries for the sole purpose of recreating the hell on Earth muslims have already created in the Middle East while bleeding Western nations dry of welfare funds.

    Reading and viewing stories of life in Sweden today is heartbreaking. A once fine and peaceful country turned into a battle zone by the over-influx of Muslim immigrants. Today they make up almost a quarter of the population.

    At what point do we halt or limit islamic immigration? Or do we go down the same path as Sweden and other European countries, none of which has a success story to tell about the islamic onslaught over the past twenty years.

  60. Ray Dixon says:

    At what point do we halt or limit islamic immigration? Or do we go down the same path as Sweden and other European countries

    Gee, I dunno, GD, why don’t you answer your own question?

    Go on, you set the ‘limit’ and then tell us how we go about discriminating against immigrants on the basis of their religious beliefs.

    It can’t be done.

    For all your muslim-bashing scaremongering you don’t actually have a solution, do you?

    So why don’t you just stop beating your stupid drum?

    Honestly, you sound like a gay rights advocate loudly screaming ‘gay marriage now’ just for the sake of it.

    Or worse still, a Greens protester.

    You’ve finally done it, GD – you’ve become the same as those you despise.

    (Btw, your propensity to put up videos of nutjobs to support your arguments is piss weak)

  61. Iain Hall says:

    The solution is simple then Ray lets stop all immigration and only increase our population the old fashioned way by making children. ;)

    In any even the immigration act already allows for the exclusion of individuals who fail the “character” test and in the same way that we would not invite the follower of a totalitarian ideology to settle here we can exclude followers of Islam on the same basis. I think that your problem is that you really just see Islam as another benign, if slightly nutty, faith not unlike Christianity, but such a view of the faith is just not supported by the evidence.

  62. Ray Dixon says:

    Iain, the ‘old fashioned way’ has always been to populate with immigrants, or have you forgotten our history (and your own)? Anyway, banning ALL immigration is a completely separate issue and avoids the question GD poses.

    in the same way that we would not invite the follower of a totalitarian ideology to settle here we can exclude followers of Islam on the same basis

    What part of the Immigration Act allows us to ban migrants on the basis of their beliefs? And how do you propose we decide which muslims are stronger ‘believers’ than others? Would this be a multiple choice questionnaire or do you suggest interrogation? You see, Iain, it’s not workable and you no more have a solution to the matter that you claim is a problem than GD has.

    your problem is that you really just see Islam as another benign, if slightly nutty, faith

    You and GD are the ones with the problem, Iain. You bleat about muslim migration and call for a halt but you have no real evidence of muslims being a problem in Australia and you have no solution to it anyway.

  63. Tel says:

    Let’s just imagine that Wilders stood in a Sydney park displaying a sign:

    BEHEAD ALL THOSE WHO INSULT CHRIST

    What do you think would happen, hmm? Be honest with yourselves.

  64. Craigy says:

    Hear Hear Ray…..

  65. Iain Hall says:

    Ray

    What part of the Immigration Act allows us to ban migrants on the basis of their beliefs?

    The part that requires immigrants to be “of good character” If an applicant believes in and practices an ideology that is antithetical to our liberal democracy what should we let them in?

    And how do you propose we decide which Muslims are stronger ‘believers’ than others?

    Ask them if they truly accept the secular foundations of our society, things like the equality of women or the acceptability of homosexuality would be a good starting point

    Would this be a multiple choice questionnaire or do you suggest interrogation?

    An face to face interview would be adequate.

    You see, Iain, it’s not workable and you no more have a solution to the matter that you claim is a problem than GD has.

    Of course its workable and while there would be some upfront costs but shouldn’t we as a nation be making the effort to choose all of our immigrants wisely with an eye on how they will both integrate and benefit the nation?

    You and GD are the ones with the problem, Iain. You bleat about Muslim migration and call for a halt but you have no real evidence of Muslims being a problem in Australia and you have no solution to it anyway.

    We do keep providing evidence of the problem here, and we also provide reasons to believe that the experience overseas can be repeated here, frankly if the Islamic Diaspora creates problems in most of the countries where they settle then you have to ask the question is it a problem with the host cultures or is it an issue with the ideology of Islam?

  66. Brian says:

    We do keep providing evidence of the problem here

    No, you don’t. You and “GD” just keep posting incidents of individuals or small groups of Muslims engaged in anti-social or inflammatory behaviour. That in itself proves absolutely nothing. We know those nutters exist; they exist in almost every country. The question is whether most or all Muslims are of the same mind. It should be quite apparent that in Australia, at least, they are not.

    Sure, “GD” is right on one thing: that moderate and peaceful Muslims should condemn extremist Muslims but they don’t. I agree that they should. But that’s religion for you; people rarely condemn those of their own cult. You rarely see Catholics condemning pedophile priests, for instance, or the church’s outdated ban on female clergy. Their failure to condemn extremism or criminal activity doesn’t mean they are bad people, it simply means they are blinded by their own tribalism.

    Ray is right about “GD”. He’s been chanting the same mantras and doing the same shit-stirring here for the year or so that I’ve been visiting this site. He rarely provides evidence and he never provides answers. He makes statements that are neither verifiable or logical. He’s been asked why he doesn’t emigrate himself if he’s so unhappy about the direction of this country; he never answers that either. In short, he’s all piss and vinegar and absolutely no ideas about what to do next.

  67. Brian says:

    Iain, it always amuses me that many of the most vocal advocates for ending immigration are those who have benefited from it themselves. In other words, they’d like to deny others the same opportunities this country has given them. I include you in this group and it’s an attitude that does you no credit whatsoever.

  68. Iain Hall says:

    Brian

    Iain, it always amuses me that many of the most vocal advocates for ending immigration are those who have benefited from it themselves.

    I came here when I was a seven year old, and despite may father asking me if I “would like to go to Australia” I really had no more choice about being here than someone born in this country. However I also feel enough of an outsider to be able to look at the nature of our society with some objectivity as well. Like it or not for any sort of multicultural society to work well you have to proceed slowly and not keep adding large quantities of different cultural “spices” in the mix lest the custard curdle or go lumpy. I am realistic enough to accept that totally stopping immigration is not going to happen but unless we consider just what the different ingredients bring to the meal rather than pretending that turnips are the same as carrots we will not have the tasty meal we desire even it it remains vaguely nourishing, I am reminded of Orwell’s “soup with or without salt” dichotomy in 1984 the former may be too tasteless and the later is too salty to eat. We just can not ignore the salt problem now while we are preparing the soup because any cook will tell you that once added its darn hard to do anything about a salty soup .

  69. GD says:

    Good analogy, Iain!

  70. Iain Hall says:

    thanks for that GD

  71. Well said, Iain. Once too much salt is added – the damage to the product is irreversible!

    I note the ‘usuals’ are trying their hardest to label damned obvious warning calls as rantings from racists. I’ve just looked at my neck and it most certainly is not red!

    I can’t wait to see all the TV stations and mainstream media outlets line up outside the Peace Conference & Exhibition (March 15th to 17th – I think…) And I cannot wait to see the same radical left-wing rent-a-mobs outside this venue, causing chaos and obstructing entry to the conference of Australians wishing to hear some real firebrand Islamic speeches from real firebrand Imams. Go to BoltA to see the pedigrees of some of the speakers.

    One rule for the overseas-based islamists attending this conference yet another for Wilders. It seems these ‘peace-preaching’ Imams had no problem at all obtaining their visas to enter this country, unlike Wilders, of course A politician from a western democracy must run the gauntlet of obstruction, counter-obstruction and ridicule. That’s where this ‘free’ society in Australia is in 2013. There are 2 rules. You are either with us (a-la a failed phenomenon, socialism) – or you are against us because you are not persuaded by socialism.

    Meanwhile, young muslims of fighting age are coming into this country by the boatload daily and are being processed within months through the Dep’t Immigration revolving door and into the community via this disgusting excuse of a government supposedly acting in the best interests of the country as a whole. How can you possibly competently assess the bona-fides of documentless people from third-world generally muslim countries so quickly? Well, when you have been embarrassed to such a level as this regime has – you will do whatever it takes to make a massive problem appear smaller.

    Anyway, I am just repeating for the 9 thousandth time what has already been said on this site by the thinking posters.

    I will be here when Australia has her own 9/11 on home soil and I will remember the names of those who labelled us capable of applying basic foresight as nutters, racists and generally unhinged.

    Forewarned is forearmed. Too bad there are some within our community too stupid or stubborn to see the writing, in large print, on the damned wall.

  72. GD says:

    Well said, Fiona, you make many good points, especially about the hypocrisy of treating Wilders as anathema, while turning a blind eye, or even welcoming, Islamist radicals.

  73. Craigy says:

    Wait, Iain, did I read you right….Are you arguing for racial purity?….Really?

  74. Ray Dixon says:

    I will be here when Australia has her own 9/11 on home soil

    That’s about the most idiotic and inflammatory comment I’ve ever read. You certainly are “unhinged”.

  75. Brian says:

    Yes, an utterly stupid comment that is purely designed to stimulate fear and hatred. Well done, Fiona, you’re a shining light for compassion, tolerance and race relations.

    I think I’ve said all I can on this topic. You Islamophobes are just repeating yourself and congratulating each other on finding new ways of saying the same old inflammatory nonsense. So I’ll leave you with this, which I think sums it all up nicely:

    http://thingsboganslike.com/2012/09/21/254-outrage/

  76. Craig says:

    This is for you and your fellow travellers Brian.

    http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/

    A definition if you’re confused.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=SWPL

    By the way it’s not bogans you really have to worry about nor the Muslims IMO, but certainly not the bogans.

  77. Craig says:

    Here you go DWL’s (You guys can look that up) this interview with the SWPL creator may enlighten you on how really, really special you are.

  78. Richard Ryan says:

    BLOGGERS who use screen names, are as useful as an ashtray in a force 10 gale—————————————absolutely useless.

  79. GD says:

    Ray said:

    For all your muslim-bashing scaremongering you don’t actually have a solution, do you?

    Ray, I have already suggested the solution put forward by an Indonesian politician:

    take the sugar off the table

    It was a while ago, but it is there in the archives.

    Take the sugar off the table, place limits on the availability of welfare. Halt all ‘family reunions’. Reintroduce TPVs, temporary protection visas, rather than granting what is almost immediate citizenship.

    There is a lot that can be done to stem the tide of ‘country shoppers’, economic migrants and freeloaders.

    It is obvious that Islam is a totalitarian ideology rather than a benign religion. Australia needs to take the gloves off and screen all-comers from Islamic countries. Either that or restrict immigration from the Middle East in favour of immigration from the rest of the world. Take your pick, there’s a lot of ‘rest of the world’, why are we so intent on importing Muslims?

    It’s disappointing that Wilders’ first visa application was held up for months. He was forced to cancel his tour. Chris Bowen, hang your head in shame. Wilders’ second visa application took five weeks. Yet the visiting speakers for the upcoming ‘Peace Conference’ have had visas granted within days.

    There is a serious disconnect between the wishes of the majority of Australians and the actions and decisions taken by this shambles of a government. The failure of their refugee policy is one of the most glaring. It is also one with the most far-reaching consequences.

    Take the sugar off the table.

  80. Iain Hall says:

    Craigy

    Wait, Iain, did I read you right….Are you arguing for racial purity?….Really?

    Absolutely NOT, I like a society that has diverse and different people but I am realistic enough to acknowledge that unless we acknowledge that the way that woe cook the soup now while we can then the future soup may well become very unpalatable.

    Ray
    We have men in prison right now who wanted to do precisely that and its only their ineptitude and the vigilance of our domestic intelligence agencies that prevented them form succeeding, so please don’t pretend that such a thing could not happen here.

    Brian

    I think I’ve said all I can on this topic. You Islamophobes are just repeating yourself and congratulating each other on finding new ways of saying the same old inflammatory nonsense. So I’ll leave you with this, which I think sums it all up nicely:

    I have no problem with any individual believing in any sort of sky fairy, following any sort of cultural practice, any sort of personal dietary regime if they are prepared, by the same token, to respect the underlying foundations of our secular liberal democracy, in other words if their religious or cultural tradition is in conflict with notions of personal freedom, tolerance autonomy and gender equality. Nor am I in any way angry about anything so your suggestion of “boganisim “is a very long way off target.

  81. Ray Dixon says:

    GD, once again you confuse refugees with overall immigration. Your ‘take the sugar off the table’ idea only applies to refugees, who make up only a very small percentage of overall immigrants. Even if it deters asylum seekers (and I seriously doubt it would) it would not stop muslims from migrating to Australia via normal intakes, which is what you’re calling for – a halt to muslim immigration, full stop.

    So we’re back to what I accused you of: You’re one of those people who bellyaches, complains and beats the drum over & over but has no solution to offer. Well done and thanks for proving the point.

  82. Craig says:

    I do, stop Muslim immigration and repatriate the others, simple. It’s very possible, the USA when they had balls removed and repatriated 1 million Mexicans in 12 months, and it only took 1000 white men to do it.

    Anyway I don’t mind Muslim and African immigration it helps my cause more then the DWL’s.

  83. Ray Dixon says:

    You do what, Craig? That’s your solution – straight out discrimination against new arrivals and some kind of manhunt to round up those muslims already living here legitimately? F*cking brilliant. Btw, I think you’ll find the 1 million Mexicans had gained illegal entry to the US in the first place and that here in Australia we do indeed round up illegals and deport them. We’ve been doing that for ages. Sorry to say this, Craig, but you are an idiot.

  84. Craig says:

    Calm down Ray, blood pressure, I was pointing out it’s very possible, all it takes is political will. I also said I don’t mind Muslim and African immigration, we should have 300000 of them immigrate every year, to help take the population pressure off the 3rd world countries, they need our welfare money and affirmative action to help them.

    Then while at work we’ll train up the Muslims and Africans to teach Australians like you and Brian on race relations and minorities.

    I know Fox news, unfortunately all the unedited footage has been taken down from youtube. I wonder why?

  85. Iain Hall says:

    Craig
    I neither want nor in any way desire a dull monoculture for this country but I do value social harmony and that requires the acceptance or at least overt toleration of our underlying secular values and expectations and if that is a problem for anyone who wishes to emigrate here then they are welcome to settle elsewhere.
    And frankly your citing the USA’s experience in expelling Mexicans is in no way analogous because the Mexicans were in the country illegally and you are talking about expelling people who are in all likely hood citizens who have the same rights as any other Aussie not to be thrown out of the country of their birth.

  86. Craig says:

    Tolerance is the last desperate attempts to hold a civilisation together, before the authoritarianism comes back in vogue. Good luck with that.

    Iain, which dull monoculture are you talking about? If it’s the multitudes of European culture or that of British Isles, I don’t see any monoculture their, nor do I see that here in Australia. Or do you buy into the lie that Europeans or their colonial descendants are a culturless monoculture? I guess the deracinated ethnic-less SWPL sure are a boring materialistic monoculture…

  87. Iain Hall says:

    If you don’t mind me asking Craig how old are you?
    because I am nudging 60 and that means I remember a very much more homogeneous Australian culture of the late sixties, and I remember the way that it has changed for the better with the influence of successive waves of Migrants in my lifetime.

  88. Ray Dixon says:

    Craig, it speaks volumes about how extreme and non-sensical your views and so-called solutions to muslim immigration are when even Iain – a confirmed anti-muslimist – condemns your ‘on drugs’ comments. I dunno what you’re taking, Craig, but I don’t want any.

  89. Craig says:

    Iain, you are of yesterday, I am of today and my multiple children are the future, I’m a lot younger then you. When young I grew up in a diverse European Australian town, I watched it’s surrounding suburbs go multicultural over the years in a non-Eurpean direction, I witnessed degeneration, depression, increases in crime and I have lost count how many of my young mates have committed suicide. The last mate hanged himself from his built-in cupboard with a belt.

    Ray, no one mentioned ‘on drugs’ but you, your mind is playing tricks, age does that to people who don’t exercise their minds enough. Perhaps the couch and watching sports on the TV too much is not a very healthy habit? Try reading novels or studying calculus, it might exercise your brain some what.

    In conclusion you can keep the “Diversity is our strength.” lie. The progressive liberals of the 60’s have done nothing but betray our future generations to hardships. The unsustainable systems your generation voted to create will come crashing down, as the 2nd law of thermodynamics is undeniable.

  90. Iain Hall says:

    Craig I have two young children still in school so don’t tell me that I am “of yesterday” I just happen to have more life experience under my belt than you do

  91. Brian says:

    Craig, how dare you mention multiculturalism and depression/growing suicide figures in the same breath, as if one is responsible for the other. That is not only implausible, it is cheap and insulting. And certainly racist by implication.

    Your waffling here borders on the insensible. I do read your comments and I make an effort to understand them, mainly to ascertain whether you have a point. But you rarely do. It’s as though you’ve swallowed books on anthropology, sociology, whiteness students and anti-liberalism, then come here to vomit it all up.

  92. Craigy says:

    Iain…

    What does this mean then.

    …unless we acknowledge that the way that woe cook the soup now while we can then the future soup may well become very unpalatable.

    Is your soup representing blood-line or culture?

    Or are you talking about Australian society, which last time I looked, was already a soup of many vegetables (i can’t believe I just said that).

  93. Iain Hall says:

    Craigy
    I don’t know how much cooking you do or of you are like so many people these days prone to rely on ready made meals and eating out but when ever you cook something the way that you choose and combine your ingredient along with how you apply heat to the ingredients has a great deal of effect on the final result.
    You can if like find any recipe and gather enough ingredients to make two meals, with the first just chuck everything in the pot and put it on a high heat, don’t worry about cleaning the veg, how you cut anything or which items should be sauteed ect and which should be added last to avoid being overcooked with the other set of ingredients do every thing according to the recipe with care and attention to the method.
    Serve and compare

    The avid multicultural fan may be full of good intentions but I would argue that they are tending towards the former style of social cookery with a rather pious hope that the result will work out to be edible, it may be but with a bit of extra care we could have a far better stew. (which is what I’m cooking for dinner tonight!)that is somewhat better than a thrown together hash

  94. Ray Dixon says:

    Hmmm, I fancy a good Indian curry myself but I think we could throw some middle eastern ingredients into it without upsetting the broth too much. Who knows, it might become Heinz’s 58th variety?

    Craig, if you’re not ‘on drugs’ then you really do have deep psychological problems. Either way it’s probably too late for you.

  95. Iain Hall says:

    I’m fond of both Indian and Middle Eastern cuisine when it comes down it Ray. I am also glad to see that you seem to be getting what I’m saying about culinary balance…

    some middle eastern ingredients

    ;)

  96. Ray Dixon says:

    A falafel or two, Iain? Don’t tell me we’re seeing a softening here …..

  97. GD says:

    are you talking about Australian society, which last time I looked, was already a soup of many vegetables (i can’t believe I just said that).

    That’s a great comment Craigy, it works on so many levels. :)

    I love your work :)

  98. GD says:

    Craig, Brian said:

    I do read your comments and I make an effort to understand them

    I also read your comments Craig, and being that they are of a conservative or right wing nature, I am usually open to listening and often agreeing.

    However your recent comments lead me to agreeing with Brian with his comment:

    It’s as though you’ve swallowed books on anthropology, sociology, whiteness students and anti-liberalism, then come here to vomit it all up.

    I would hope that the next generation has more lucid advisors than yourself after us old blokes are put out to pasture.

Comments are closed.

Welcome to the Sandpit

I love a good argument so please leave a comment

Please support the Sandpit

Please support the Sandpit

Do you feel lucky?

Do you feel lucky?

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 263 other followers

%d bloggers like this: