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I cite this incident as an example of just how long an allegation of rape will continue to haunt the accused ,even years after the matter has been dismissed by the law. Somehow I expect that Ray will point out that as we are talking about Collingwood supporters then we should not expect anything approaching reasonable behaviour.
Cheers Comrades
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Yes, Iain. And not only that, Collingwood’s coach Mick Malthouse and President Eddie McGuire are the real problem here.
Firstly, Malthouse used the slur against Milne on field in a game last year (won by St Kilda, btw) when he called Milne a “f*cking rapist” as they were passing at quarter time. It was caught on camera. After a lot of media pressure he finally issued an apology, but only in a newspaper article and not directly to Milne. Malthouse was fined $7,500 by the AFL for the incident while Milne was fined $3,000 for responding with something like “you’re a f*cking white haired old man”.
Secondly, McGuire as President failed to censure or condemn Malthouse for slurring an opposition player and actually defended him. Not only that, in another C’wood-St.Kilda game earlier this year, McGuire was caught on camera loudly berating a Saints supporter for referring to C’wood player Andrew Krakouer as an “ex-convict” or something like that. Krakouer IS an ex-convict having served time for assault in W.A. That’s how hypocritical McGuire is.
So you can see that the culture of Collingwood spreads from the top. Mind you, it seems to bypass the players – who seem to be more respectful – and goes straight to the feral fans.
I am not a Collingwood supporter Ray, but from what I have seen, your views on them are compromised. You hate them and it shows in most of the stuff you write. Did you once hint that they won the final last year because of drugs?
Also, while Milne wasn’t charged, there was enough of a kerfuffle to suggest the case wasn’t handled properly. I remember allegations from a couple of coppers about how some high ranking police had intefered with evidence or something. That does not prove Milne was guilty but it does raise doubts about the whole matter.
That said, you are never going to stop morons in football crowds behaving like this. Whatever they have read or heard as gossip they will throw at players. I doubt St Kilda fans are much different.
As for the subject of (false) rape accusations Iain, still no comment from you on the fact that Andrew Lovett is now being questioned for a second rape allegation. The bloke has convictions and AVO for violence against his ex girlfriend, he’s been in court charged with rape once, now the cops are after him again. Still standing by that statement that it was all just a “drunken f–k”?
TOI
To be entirely honest Iain I have no way of knowing if this new allegation is true, nor does it matter to the question that I was asking in my post about the Lovett aquittal, our legal system is supposed to exonerate a person if the they are acquitted. and your dogged instance that he is still guilty of a crime even when the trail says otherwise is all the more reason to think that the person who needs anonymity before during and after a rape accusation (until there is a conviction) is not the woman making the accusation but the man that she is accusing of ill using her.
All true, by the letter of the law. But this loser has now been accused of violence against women not once but three times, by three different women. He’s either desperately unlucky to be caught in these situations with these evil women who make false allegations, or he’s a liar who has been lucky to escape at least one of the charges. But I’m more interested in your tendency to blame the victim than I am with Lovett’s own fate.
More wrongheaded (and predictable) stupidity from the resident pest. My views on who? This is about the Collingwood supporters, not about the players and their suspect ‘strength building’. All I have said in my comment here is to quote the facts. There’s no opinion in what I’ve said because I realise that any opinion I express on footy that involves St Kilda is bound to attract accusations of bias from fingerpointers like you. So do try harder because this time you’ve really got it wrong. As usual.
Yes you can. Just ban Malthouse, McGuire & Joffa !
TOI the law contains a presumption of innocence so prove he is guilty or stop accusing the man
TOI were you anywhere near Saturn street in Geelong today ?
No I wasn’t Iain. Were you anywhere near the Big Pineapple when Daniel Morcombe vanished?
All I have said in my comment here is to quote the facts
When Ray speaks it’s facts. When everyone else speaks, it’s just an opinion.
Look, I don’t particularly care about the issue, one way or the other. But you rabbiting about the “culture of Collingwood” and claiming it to be a fact is ridiculous. You hate them.
And anyway, wouldn’t a Collingwood supporter be able to make similar claims about St Kilda, with all these rape allegations, nutty schoolgirl groupies and nude photos? What’s sauce for the goose, etc.
No football club (or fan club) holds the moral high ground, and from what I have seen, no group behaves significantly better or worse than another. To get on your high horse and claim otherwise is to kid yourself.
Actually TOI Daniel Morcombe was no where near the Big Pineapple when he was taken
From Wiki:
It is believed that Morcombe was abducted from an unofficial bus stop under the Kiel Mountain Road overpass in the Woombye district of the Sunshine Coast approximately 2 km north of The Big Pineapple on Sunday, 7 December 2003.
God you’re an idiot, TOI. Do you just make this tripe up to be a nuisance or are you genuinely stupid & warped? Probably both.
Look, I have merely stated what Malthouse & McGuire did. There is no opinion in that, only F.A.C.T.S. Got it? I’ve hardly “rabbited on” about their culture. I’ve simply highlighted the FACTS (i.e. the actions of Malthouse & McGuire) and then stated the obvious – that the culture of abuse stems from the top. You’d be the only idiot who can’t see that. You and anyone who follows Collingwood, I guess.
And what freakin’ “high horse” did I get on? Sheez, I can’t be bothered defending myself any further against your tripe. What’s your problem? I’ve got work to do – bugger off.
TOI
I don’t care what Wiki says I live up here and you don’t
Further I concur with what Ray says about any O/T references to SP being deleted
From what I hear on 7 December 2003 the Jan Juc CC were on a Cricket trip to the Sunshine Coast.
God you’re an idiot, TOI.
Another typical Ray tactic. Resorts to abuse when challenged. And screams blue murder when someone abuses him back.
Yes, the actions of McGuire and Malthouse are FACTS. But to claim that there is a “culture” of anything anywhere, on the basis of two events, is OPINION. And the opinion of someone who hates Collingwood at that.
There have been two allegations of rape involving St Kilda players. Does that mean there is a culture of dubious sexual conduct at St Kilda? Of course not, it would be ridiculous to say that.
I’ve got work to do – bugger off.
So what are you doing here then?
I don’t care what Wiki says I live up here and you don’t
http://www.news.com.au/national/prisoners-clues-may-lead-to-missing-boy-daniel-morcombe/story-e6frfkvr-1225765033009
“Daniel was last seen about 2.10pm on Sunday, December 7, 2003, under the Kiel Mountain Rd overpass on the Nambour Connection Rd about 2km north of the Big Pineapple.”
Seems like you don’t know squat, Iain. Regardless of where you live.
Further I concur with what Ray says about any O/T references to SP being deleted
Sieg Heil!
Hey Lygo? What are you attempting to infer from the Big Pineapple question and your continued reference to the place this poor boy went missing from?
Given your identity is well known here, to continue may lead to a defamation cause.
I was responding to one idiotic inference with another, Dunell.
If you carry on like an idiot, I’ll call you one, TOI. You’ve taken a perfectly innocuous remark I made and turned into something it’s not. As for abuse, the whole reason you come here is to abuse, denigrate & belittle others, no matter how insipid and absurd your ‘complaints’ about those others are. I suggest you grow up and behave like an adult or just go away. I wouldn’t allow you to comment at my blog – I’d do a Jeremy on you and just refuse to let your rubbish pollute the air.
1966 was a long, long time ago Ray.
2010, not so long ago
TOI who or what is a “Dunell”?
Well Ray, you’re a never-wrong blow hard who always has to have the last word. Unless you can’t think of a good last word, in which case you resort to deleting and banning, which is always the coward’s way out.
Answer the point or stop your puerile sooking and whining.
Angel, what is 1966 a reference to?
The one and only time St KIlda has ever won a premiership.
2010 was Collingwood’s latest.
Ray knows I don’t support Collingwood (Hawthorn infact), but I do have a theory regarding the St Kilda supporters continually attacking those of Collingwood. The only Grand Final St Kilda has ever won was against Collingwood. It’s like the bully selecting a victim cause they have beaten them that one time. Every other team gets off the wrath of St Kilda supporters as they will never even come close to our level.
Answer what point, TOI? You haven’t made one. And you can get stuffed over the deleting. I will delete your off-topic and unsubstantiated slurs, okay? Or do you think you should be entitled to carry on like a prized prat when and wherever you feel? It doesn’t work like that in the real world, Mr Tool.
Angel, that’s not even worth responding to. I realise you’re trying to get a response or a rise or something like that, but give up.
Story time
Once upon a time there was school and some of the pupils there were Little West Coast Eagle, Master Hawk & Mister Bomber, to name just a few. One of the sad little creatures was Master St Kilda. He had a tough upbringing. His family were alcohol abusers, women abusers and one of his uncles was even spotted in a hotel with a young girl. His family was also poor and did not have many friends. Well, Master St Kilda could not cut a break as he wasn’t much good at anything, and was beaten in every event by his classmates time and time again. One year though, Master St Kilda actually beat up another kid called Mister Colliewobble when he had caught the measles and wasn’t feeling the best.. It only happened the once. Since that glorious occasion when he finally got one of his own back, he has bullied Mister Colliewobble at every opportunity, despite the fact the mighty Colliewobble and the other classmates kick his butt everytime.
Moral of the story – Sainthood only comes around once in a lifetime.
Well TOI
you have earned yourself a place in the moderation line, until you learn that when we ask you to be civil to all we mean it.
Ray
Me thinkst that Mr Malthouse may have learned his intemporance at one of his earlier clubs.
The Moorabin mud mouth comes out in him once in a while. Driving a Lexus and flying Emerates may cure him of it, but it will take time to decontaminate the man.
S*it, is that the pot calling the kettle black !
And he’d be welcome back. If Collingwood doesn’t want him as their coach for the next 5 years (and they don’t), we’ll have him.
Yes and day one he’d sack #44.
BTW
Some pedegree you may be unaware of.
http://www.slattsnews.observationdeck.org/?p=1908
Sax: “S*it, is that the pot calling the kettle black !”
It’s worse than that, Sax. This TOI comment from last night is now in the trash but I think it reveals a fair bit about him (including that he can’t spell “hyperbole”):
So TOI thinks that because no one has stalked him on the Internet (like he does to others), that means he’s popular? Huh? That’s just plain twisted – I’d suggest it means that others don’t behave as badly as he does and that he’s too insignificant to bother with.
No wonder Iain has now put him in moderation.
The first thing Malthouse would have to do, damage, is apologise to Milne for making that public slur on him. Properly. You know, face to face. Then they could get along. Milne wouldn’t be sacked – nearly 500 goals in just over 200 games makes him one of the AFL’s all time great small forwards.
Interesting link. What was TOI saying about being “popular”?
TOI – You mean Jeremy Sear doesn’t have a group of mates dedicated to a stalky page on you like they do Andrew Bolt.
Malthouse never made a public slur on him Ray. It was a private conversation – in public. An entirely different circumstance.
He has made a public apology though, but probably should make a private one too – I agree.
It is doubtful that Milne would fit into the type of team Malthouse has traditionally coached. I assume you want him there so that you can actually WIN the flag rather than being a quality contender, so the dismissal of Milne would – in my opinion – be one of the first steps in getting that goal reached.
“500″ in the goals column is an impressive stat. One you would love to have on your CV if you were an AFL player, but most would gladly remove it in order to have “1″ in the premierships column.
Here are a few names you might like to give thought to.
Peter McKenna 800 – 0
Tony Lockett 1300 – 0
Gary Ablett Snr 1000 – 0
Matthew Richardson 800 – 0
Bernie Quinlan 800 – 0
Sav Rocca 700 – 0
David Neitz 600 – 0
Beazley
Loewe
Osborne
Fevola
Templeton
All past 500 goals and no premierships.
Milne’s value to his team is going to be judged bu the second column Ray.
And yes TOI has an interesting take on “popular”
I think, damage, that when an AFL coach standing on the ground at quarter time angrily and aggressively points his finger at a passing opposition player and yells “f*cking rapist” at him (mouthing the words very clearly) in front of other players and knowing full well that the cameras would be on him, that is very much “making a public slur”. But you can call it “a private conversation in public” if you like … no one else does.
It’s not Milne’s fault that the Saints haven’t won a flag in his time, although if he’d kicked straight in 2009 GF against Geelong … Anyway, this is glass half full/half empty stuff. The point is that great players like the ones you mention have given their sides the opportunity to win a flag and the fact they haven’t enjoyed that success does not diminish them. The Saints could well do with Malthouse because he seems to have that knack of making very good players out of ordinary ones. Tactically he’s brilliant. Lyon is pretty good but I reckon even he would concede St Kilda would be better off with Malthouse and I think he’s big enough to even step aside if Malthouse shows enough interest. Or at least share the job with him, which is not as out there as it seems.
TOI is about as popular as a sh*t sandwich.
I don’t agree that it was a public slur. The insult Milne yelled at Malthouse was not public, because the camera didn’t catch it.
Had Malthouse said this at a presser or in his column you would have an argument, but that’s not the case.
However, if you want to view it as such then Malthouse’s public apology should suffice.
“It’s not Milne’s fault that the Saints haven’t won a flag in his time…”
Beg to differ. He had a number of chances in 2009 to kick goals and missed in a game they lost by 6 points effectively. And then who could forget his chance in the draw on 2010? Not even you Ray – with all the forgetting juice you’ve consumed since.
A shite sandwidch is what you appear to be wishing on Lyon too Ray.
If it’s said in front of other people that makes it public. Malthouse’s “f*cking rapist” slur and Milne’s “old man” reply were both made in earshot of other players, ergo they were both public. And as Malthouse was clearly caught on camera (and as he was the instigator of the exchange) his ‘sin’ was worse, as reflected in the AFL fines handed out.
Yeah, it’s easy to blame Milne for the 2009 loss and the 2010 draw, but you’re missing my point. You could also blame: Schneider, Montagna & McQualter for missing easy ones in 09 and even Dawson for knocking the ball in Scarlett’s direction late in the game. In 2010 you could also blame Gwilt for knocking through a behind for C’wood when we were 6 pts up late in the game and when it looked to me that he could have taken the ball and cleared it. Then Del Santo cleared the ball straight to a C’wood player who passed it to Cloke who goaled. If those things hadn’t happened and the Saints had won, then you’d be singling out certain C’wood players for criticism and not Milne. He has certainly stuffed up at times but overall he’s a valuable player, as are the rest I mentioned. And don’t forget all those C’wood stuff ups between 1958 and 1990 – how many times were they runners up?
I’m not wishing anything on Lyon, I’m just suggesting he would not be averse to having Malthouse join him as a sort of ‘dynamic duo’ of coaches. It might happen too.
Although I think the Bulldogs might be after Malthouse too, now that Eade is out. That’s where Mick started his coaching career.
Btw, I bet Iain will be rapt to see his blog turned into AFL talk.
“If it’s said in front of other people that makes it public.”
So if Malthouse rebukes a player in a team meeting – it’s public? Are Juliar’s cabinet discussions public? That’s not an accurate definition at all.
Milne and Malthose had a private conversation in public. The comments of both were for the consumption of the other alone.
Yes he “sinned” against this “Saint” and he was punished and has apologised. MOVE ON.
Schneider, Montagna & McQualter aren’t being touted as champs because of the number of goals they have kicked though.
I couldn’t give a fat rat’s about 1958 – 1990. I remember that Davis, Lockier, O’Bree and a number of other “Valuable” players were left out of the replay (and some the first GF) because there’s no place for liabilities in those game. If MM had the Saints on a permanent basis I couldn’t see him keeping this particular person. He’s symptomatic of the reason not much has happened in the Moorabin Trophy room in 45 seasons.
All on topic Ray. All on topic.
No, it’s not a “private conversation” when it’s yelled like that in a PUBLIC place. And, btw, Cabinet rooms are not public places, they’re private meetings. Sorry, your definition is very much askew.
“Move on”? I’m not complaining about it and I can’t see where I have. I’ve only pointed out what actually happened and the fact Malthouse hasn’t apologised properly but, quite frankly, I don’t really care, apart from the fact that I think Malthouse & McGuire’s handling of it has contributed to some C’wood fans (a small group, not the cheer squad) thinking it’s okay to continue the public slurs, when it’s not. But no skin off my nose.
And, for what it’s worth, I agree that Malthouse is a far more ruthless and (ultimately) effective coach than most other coaches and probably would have taken the Saints to a flag if we’d had him for the 10 or 11 years that C’wood had him before he finally won one.
And you’re right – Iain’s post is about the AFL so it’s his fault that we’re talking footy.
Ray
If you want to make the running in a thread about AFL then all I can say is more power to your arm mate that means that I don’t have to try to make the running on a topic taht I know very little about.
Closer to home they have begun playing the game at my children’s school which is a real worry to me
Football grounds are not public places either Ray. Only players and officials are allowed on them. In fact it is an offence to enter one if you are not a member of one of those two groups. Ergo any conversation on one constitutes a private or at least a restricted conversation. I’ve been to many AFL games Ray and I don’t care how loudly Malthouse spoke, except for Milne and the other players and officials who were there, nobody else heard a word believe me. The only reason anything came of it is that a camera caught the action and we can all lip read a little bit.
If you and you wife are discussing something in the carpark of the local Woolies is that a public conversation or a private on held in public?
And BTW don’t you think that StKilda supporters have said the same thing to Dane Beams? And what about their taunts of “Jail Bird” to Andrew Krakouer? I guess it’s the Nicky Winmar thing with the Saints. Bit sensitive down at Moorabin.
Collingwood fans are no more or less nasty than any other fans. Hell I hear Geelong supporters say the most disgusting and personal insults every week – to their own players often. And it’s not the fault of the coach or president. I remember that the Saints coach and president couldn’t bee in the same room as on another once. Did the fans follow?
Huh? Look, I think this has become semantic now. You keep calling it “a conversation” as though Malthouse was just having a friendly chat when, in reality, he had to know that by doing what he did, he was indeed making it very public, as proved to be the case. I think that’s what’s called a QED – speaks for itself and is entirely evident by the facts and outcome. The fact we’re talking about it now means it was indeed a “public slur”.
And if the “discussion” in the carpark at Woolies was loud, angry and involved accusations of being a “f*cking rapist” that could be overheard then that too would be a “public slur” not a “private conversation”. Seriously, damage, you’re stretching reality here and I’ll just leave it at that. As I said, I don’t really care.
As for the Krakouer taunt, well the FACT is he has been in jail. Hardly defamatory to say “go back”. Not nice, I agree, but how hypocritical was it for McGuire to berate the Saints supporter but not Malthouse? So typical.
I’m not going to be goaded into reacting to your digs at the Saints though. I agree they are underachievers, but we still love ‘em. I dunno how anyone can ‘love’ Collingwood but then again, even ugly people find partners.
Anyhow Ray, we’re discussing the conduct of the ‘Pies’ last premiership coach. The only thing we could discuss adout the Saints’ last coach is his funeral.
And his achievements at St Kilda & Hawthorn. Allan Jeans is probably the best coach ever after McHale & Norm Smith.
I don’t think the content of a conversation makes it private or public Ray. Is Malthouse involved in a public conversation when he addresses the players ar 1/4 time or when he instructs Neeld on a forward structure change?
You can’t claim “public” just because it was a nasty conversation. Milne gave as good as he got too. And what’s a FACT? Something that happened or something a court found someone guilty of.
Had AK had the police support SM seems to have had then his outcomes may have been different. Who knows?
True.
Melbourne and St Kilda are the only clubs without a living premiership coach though.
If you count Bomber Thompson as being ‘alive’ that is. The man looks like a zombie most of the time.
Oh, and you forgot Freo and the Gold Coast – they’ve never won one. And is Footscray’s only premiership coach from 1954 still kicking? Who was it, Charlie Sutton? What about Fitzroy? Okay, they’re defunct since 1996 but I think the coach of their last premiership (in about 1930 something) had well & truly carked it by then. And before Paul Roos in 2005, Sydney/Sth melbourne had waited 72 years but the coach didn’t.
Sutton lives.
Mathews was the last premiership coach of Fitzroy’s modern form. Freo and Gold Coast don’t have dead coaches either.
Roos is alive.
Only Melbourne and St Kilda have been without premierships for so long that the men who delivered them have passed on.
No, you can’t shift the goalposts, damage. You said ” the only clubs without a living premiership coach”, not with a dead one, and so that would then include Freo & Gold Coast. Two can play at semantics.
And Fitzroy did not become, or even really merge with, the Brisbane Lions. Brisbane has 3 flags won in 2001, 02 & 03. Fitzroy died in 1996.