AUSTRALIANS’ confidence about their jobs and the cost of living has crashed to its lowest since the recession of the 1990s, with pessimism in the community at levels last seen two decades ago when Paul Keating warned that the nation could become “a banana republic”.
In the past six months, the percentage of people who fear their living conditions will “get worse” has more than doubled – the biggest jump in the 23-year history of Newspoll’s standard-of-living survey – as the percentage of those expecting an improvement almost halved.
Fears about living standards for the next six months are worse than voters experienced before the introduction of the Howard government’s GST in July 2000.
According to the latest Newspoll survey on standard-of-living expectations, conducted at the weekend, the percentage of people who think their living conditions will get worse in thenext six months has gone from just 18per cent after the November election of the Rudd Government to 43 per cent.
In December, the percentage who thought it would get better in the next six months was 21 per cent.
That figure has since slumped to just 13per cent as households have been hit with soaring petrol prices and two interest rate rises, taking rates to a 12-year high of 7.25 per cent.
Over the last six months or so we have seen the shine coming off the Government of Brother Number One like a car body being sand blasted. And the confidence in the ability of Wayne Swan as treasurer dissipate at a great rate of knots which is bad for the ALP because it started from a very low base anyway.But these figures show that the latte sippers who are now in power just do not have any simpatico with the common people at all. They don’t know what it is like to pay nearly twice as much to fill the Falcon with petrol as we did a year ago, what it feels like to be suffocating under an onerous mortgage or to consider the items on the shopping list with great care hoping to save where you can.
Nah, this is a government who are planning to add a tax to just about everything we buy and use in the form an “Emissions trading scheme” to solve a problem that they can’t even definitively prove exists. Which will just end up lining the pockets of speculators and shysters who have supported the ALP.
Is it any wonder Consumer confidence is at an all time low?
Cheers Comrades
Filed under: Australian Politics, Carbon Trading, Global Warming, Life and Work balance, Living with Nature | Tagged: Consumer confidence, Wayne Swan
Iain – do you understand what inflation is? In an inflationary market, you WANT consumer confidence to go down. That’s the idea. That’s the reason interest rates have not gone up at the last three RB meetings.
Consumer spending needs to cool for inflation to cool. Lending practices harden, supply outstrips demand in the housing market which in turn puts further downward pressure on inflation.
What’s happening at the moment is what’s supposed to happen in this kind of climate. And it was always going to happen, regardless of who is in power, given the fact that the three years previous to the current financial year saw record Credit spending coupled with the Equity crisis in the US. Hard as it is to accept, it’s a good thing. It shows the RB is doing it’s job, and that our market can withstand the credit crunch seen elsewhere by applying the right kind of pressure at the right time.
And everyone jumped off the “Wayne Swann can’t manage the economy” about three months ago – and the last of the rats jumped ship when he delivered a budget that got the approval of even the rabidly-conservative AFR.
Not that I care about the ALP Iain, but when you headline that the ’shine completely gone now’ how do you explain this;
Approval rating as preferred prime minister;
Rudd = 64 percent
Nelson = 15 percent
I think you’re a little bit early to be making your ‘completely gone’ call Iain.
Or is this more of your sarcasm?
The problems the ALP has inherited from the previous government and the world economy include high oil prices, ever increasing food prices and a housing crisis. The Liberal party (along with the ALP) has no answer to these challenges. I suggest that conservatives need to look beyond the right wing parties like the ALP to see some fresh ideas that could help in the long term.
wow, Ian, you could be talking about Canada right about now,particularly British Columbia, where I live in a suburb outside Vancouver.
Our Liberal govt has just introduced a new carbon tax today, which is pushing the cost of fuel up another 2.4 cents- this on top of the massive amounts of taxes already added into the price, coupled with skyrocketing oil prices. As of today, gas goes for $1.51 a litre CDN, and the average joe is hurting. We have to live further and further and further away from our jobs due to through the roof housing prices,and many people are getting to the breaking point.
Where will it end? I dont know that people here will get mad enough to stand up and say no,although this is the time to do it, as we have elections coming in the fall….
Keri
i do understand what inflation is but you have been conned if you believe that the inflation is the result of over active consumerism. The real villain here is the one that you yourself identify, the cost of fuel and energy. This is a component of the measures of inflation and it hardly qualifies as “discretionary” spending because it feeds into the budgets of people who don’t have cars through hight transport costs. Once again those who are being asked to pay more are not thoise who have caused the “problem”.
Craigy
The Preferred prime minister measure is irrelevant here because that asks people to rank the alternatives. Rudd and his plans for an ETS are not as attractive as you seem to think people are starting to realise that this is just an unmitigated tax grab that has the potential to wreack our economy in the name of ideology.
Laila
Welcome to my place
Sadly your government in Canada seems bent on making the same kind of silly commitments to the green religion that ours is doing here. When I was a younger man the government used to raise their funds through the sinners taxes on beer and cigarettes now under the green faith it is modern life that is being taxed. I expect that in a colder climate like yours the “carbon taxes will hit very hard when it comes to heating bills in the winter, something that is not an issue where I live.
Cheers and I hope you are getting enough sleep
BTW Iain,
Do try to remember that its under the Libs that saw the last 9 or so out of the 13 rate rises to date – and that its was under the Libs that inflation started to skyrocket (in the last 3 months of their term to be precise).
Its obvious from Craigys polling figures that most of the coutnry realises that, and its just the die-hard Liberal minority like yourself that doesn’t!
“but you have been conned if you believe that the inflation is the result of over active consumerism”
Oh, really? Did I state that it was because of overactive consumerism? Or have you completely misunderstood one factor and completely dismissed the other?
Overactive Consumerism is a by-product of high inflation. Consumer confidence is a marker, and a very reliable one. It isn’t the cause, but in the current climate if it wasn’t dropping we’d be in trouble.
High inflation comes to be because of many issues, not just fuel and energy. The main driving factors in the current market situation are housing affordability, the fact that for the last decade lending practices have been what would be considered “soft” and the knock-on effect of the Credit crunch in the US. Additionally, the US dollar has been devalued in the last year and a half, which in turn inflates the value of our own dollar. Consider the fact that when interest rates (A good indicator, along with CPI increases and inflation of current market factors) were low, the value of the Australian Dollar vs. the American was in the mid-to-high sixties to mid-to-high seventies, and we start to see a more accurate picture of the causes of our current market. The high value of the Australian Dollar dissuades investors from putting their money into our markets, although that has been to some extent offset by the resources boom.
These are all factors that you need to understand and take into account when you are looking at the current market, Iain. You’ve over-simplified this issue because of your own prejudice, and it isn’t doing you any favours.
That aside, considering the price of fuel has been steadily rising for two years, you can hardly blame the current government for that trend. Also, if you look at global prices, I think you’ll find it hard to blame “Brother Number One” for the price of fuel in the UK and Europe three years ago.
Before you respond Iain, you might do well to remember that my background is in Finance. Specifically; Investment Lending, Margin Lending, Futures, Credit Analysis and Broking. Considering I’ve had first-hand experience of the very markets you’re referring to in the last ten years, I think it’s highly unlikely I’M the one who has been conned.
Keri
claiming to be an expert on finance does YOU no favours in supporting your argument because all it means is that you are so steeped in the jargon and orthodoxy regarding the economy that you can’t see the wood for the trees.
This post is all about how people are feeling about the economic environment they find themselves in now and while I take on board all that you have said above all of which I am familiar with I actually remember what it was like in the seventies when we had a REAL inflation problem (caused by the Whitlem Government no less)the situation now is by no stretch of the imagination as bad as it was then. So much of the panic about inflation has been propagated by this government as a means of vilifying their predecessors with the charge led by none other by Brothers number One and Two.( Rudd and Swan) like so much of this government it is all spin.
I don’t claim to be an expert, Iain, but given my actual qualifications, it means I have a very real understanding of how the economy works. Suggesting I can’t read the market because that’s what I’ve done for a living for the best part of a decade is a stretch of the imagination even for you.
Your response is akin to saying a doctor cannot diagnose a patient effectively because he is qualified to be a doctor. It’s completly ridiculous to suggest I “can’t see the wood for the trees” because I’m qualified to read the market.
Given the markets I work in, I was obliged not to be “steeped in orthodoxy”, or my default books would have been completely out of all control. If I couldn’t read the changing market proficiently, I wouldn’t have been able to do my job at all.
I stated my financial credentials because you implied I was being “conned” and didn’t have a correct understanding of financial markets, Iain. I’ve shown that clearly isn’t the case, and you respond with piffle about “jargon” (which, really, is correct terminology rather than the usual emotive language you choose to employ) and “financial orthodoxy”
“So much of the panic about inflation has been propagated by this government as a means of vilifying their predecessors with the charge led by none other by Brothers number One and Two.( Rudd and Swan) like so much of this government it is all spin.”
There are so many contradictions in this statement I don’t know where to start.
Firstly, if the “panic” has been propagated by “this government”, what have you to say of the panic induced by Howard at the previous election in regards to interest rates? Secondly, by vilifying this government in regards to financial controls, YOU are doing the very same thing!
Thirdly, if it is in fact “panic” and not a reaction by the general public to the current financial markets, wouldn’t that mean there isn’t any actual problem? What else would the use of the word panic imply?
Fourthly, how about you have a look at the actual facts of my comment and respond to them?
The salient point, Iain, is that lower consumer confidence in the current climate is a good thing. It shows the government is doing it’s job. YOU are the one employing spin if you suggest otherwise.
Well Keri the one thing that I do notice in your comments is a total absence of an endorsement for the Emissions trading scheme proposed by the government.
What pray tell do you think of that?
Still having that tag problem I see Iain. Six months in and you’re all but calling it curtains for Rudd? My, my you must have such great faith to believe Dr Who could beat anyone (even Robert Mugabe) in a fair election. Oh bring it on please.
I for one love coming here and watching Iain wiggle and squirm, bitch and moan about the Rudd government. I bet the first thought that crosses Iain’s mind when sitting at his PC every morning is not ‘What will I write about?’ but ‘How can I slag off Rudd?’ At times he’s got to fumble around at the bottom of the bag and today is one of those days.
I’m not sure why you’re complaining anyway Iain. Haven’t you bragged several times about not having a mortgage, resisting expensive consumer items, recycling old into new and living a simple life? You should be sitting pretty, interest rates and inflation should be the least of your worries.
I think Kevin Rudd (who likes to ask rhetorical questions and then answer them) would say, “Am I worried about losing an election to Dr Who? No, I’m not.”
Ian, you are right about our governments new actions regarding green taxes. This carbon tax is going to kill us come winter, even in our rather mild climate on the coast.
I think people up north will go back to wood heaters and fireplaces, defeating any green incentive that the higher prices of fuel are supposed to give.Our premier didnt think of anything but a moneygrab, but it may be his undoing in the end. He should have targeted big business polluters instead, hitting them where it hurts, since they are getting away with continual polluting ever since our Prime minister nixed Kyoto.
And, I am getting tons of sleep- all this wonderful baby has done for his first week is eat,sleep and poop, and he goes for a good five hours down at night. I’m thinking if there is some way we can harness the energy of his “emissions”, the fuel crisis would be over…lol…
Ray,
I’m not calling it curtains For Brother Number One yet, but I am saying that he is not the Messiah that many of your friends claim him to be.As for the good Doctor, well as a Fan of the time lord I can tell you that he always comes through in the end, usually with the help of a lovely companion.
Mark
you are right that the interest rates ect are not a big problem for me personally and sure I live simply but that does not make me blind to what is going on around me. As for what drives my posting choices I read half a dozen news sources and see what takes my fancy , what tickles my muse so to speak and I take it from there. Like a lot of people I do tend to follow one topic over several posts and at present it is the woes of the BN1 government.Feel free to defend them if you please.
Laila
what strikes me about all of the Carbon tax schemes is that they are trying to steer a large boat with a piece of LIMP spaghetti, namely they are creating instruments that will have no direct control of the “problem” and as you suggest will just change peoples behaviour in way that will have the opposite effect from the intention.
(O/T) Great news about your little chap that is a fine result at this stage of the game.
Tell you what, Iain. I’ll answer your question, even though you still haven’t answered mine.
Until I see the details of the Emissions Trading Scheme, I’m not sure what I think about it. But from the little I have seen, I would support it only if the revenue raised was going towards something meaningful. My first preference would be for a percentage of it – in real terms – to go towards more research in clean fuels and energy, conducted by independent groups rather than groups aligned with either side of the political divide. My second preference would be the money go towards essential services, such as Health, Emeregency Services and Education since these are areas where there is always money needed.
In principle, I don’t mind paying more short term if it means corporations will need to think about the impact they have on the environment. We’ve seen the same kind of thing done in Victoria in regards to water usage, and I don’t have any issue with businesses being made accountable for their impact on the environment.
So, I’ve answered your question. Any chance you’ll answer my questions now?
Right Keri despite seeing most of your questions as being rhetorical I have gone back and picked the actual questions from your comments and I will consider them in turn.
Yes I do.
Not explicitly but when the panacea for ‘the problem” is to put pressure on consumer spending one would think that the discretionary spending is the engine of inflation.
NO
Two different issues entirely, the former was unheard of before Brother Number One got into the lodge and the later was as much an animal of the ALP as it was of the coalition.
No, but it does mean that the fear and loathing generated by Brother Number Two is out of all proportion to the severity of the problem.
Oh, really? Did I state that it was because of over-active consumerism?
Not explicitly but when the panacea for ‘the problem” is to put pressure on consumer spending one would think that the discretionary spending is the engine of inflation.
As I have explained before, it is not the cure, but a symptom of improvement. It shows that the measures in place are working. I gave – at length – the other factors involved in inflation, which you chose to ignore.
Or have you completely misunderstood one factor and completely dismissed the other?
NO
One would ask why it has taken you this long to respond to it, that being the case.
Firstly, if the “panic” has been propagated by “this government”, what have you to say of the panic induced by Howard at the previous election in regards to interest rates?
Two different issues entirely, the former was unheard of before Brother Number One got into the lodge and the later was as much an animal of the ALP as it was of the coalition.
“The former was unheard of?” Did you somehow miss two election campaigns worth of economy-related panic? Where were you when Howard was telling us all that the economy would fall down around our ears if Labor got in? Howard took economic-scaremongering to an entirely new level during his tenure. To suggest otherwise is flat-out bullshit at worst and disingenious at best.
Thirdly, if it is in fact “panic” and not a reaction by the general public to the current financial markets, wouldn’t that mean there isn’t any actual problem?
No, but it does mean that the fear and loathing generated by Brother Number Two is out of all proportion to the severity of the problem.
So if there is a problem, but it’s not as big as “Brother Number Two” is saying it is, is he an effective (though conservative) economic manager or not? If things aren’t that bad – clearly he is. If they are, he’s not causing panic. You can’t have it both ways.
In your rush to blame Rudd and Swann for the current consumer confidence downturn you’ve so far;
* Ignored the actual state of the economy and it’s causes.
* Suggested someone with actual economic credentials who was giving you a clearer picture is less qualified to read the market than you are simply because they are thus qualified.
* Blamed Swann for economic mismanagement.
* Changed your mind and said he’s inducing “panic” about the economy.
* Stated that petrol has doubled in the last year, which it hasn’t.
* Implied that the cost of petrol, interest rate rises and groceries in the last year is somehow the fault of the present Government, despite the fact they have not been in power for a twelvemonth yet, and the rises started well before they were elected.
The only conclusion a rational person could come to with this – frankly bewildering – set of back-flips and obfuscations is that you are in such a hurry to blame Rudd and Swann for anything and everything you are wilfully ignoring the facts.
Yay for Keri!
Oh boy Iain….your religiously irrational commitment to defending Howard is making all your comments about ‘growing up’ from a leftist to a rightard look like a crock.
Your just and ideologue after all.
Well done Kerry, the light of logic and knowledge out-shines the Hall ego yet again.
Apologies for my previously non-constructive comment Ian. My grasp of economics is thin and so it’s informative to hear the views of someone who has expertise in such matters. I think this one has really backfired on you. Trying to blame all of the global economic woes on a government that has sat for barely 6 months is a little weak.
Oh, and Iain?
But these figures show that the latte sippers who are now in power just do not have any simpatico with the common people at all.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23955629-17301,00.html?source=cmailer
Only 25% of the people who will actually be paying for the ETS disagree with it.
A broader survey discovered that when asked whether they would be prepared to pay more for petrol and energy as a result of an ETS, more than half were okay with that.
It would appear YOU are the one who “just does not have any simpatico with the common people at all”
There is much to answer here so I will start at the end and work back up the thread
Keri #21
checked your link and I did not find the figure that you quote But the passage at the end of the article shows much less support than you claim.
The sample size was not included and the fact that this is being sold as a motherhood issue suggests to me that some people are very likely saying what they think the survey wants to hear.But when the cost actually rise people will be far less sanguine about it.
Gavin#20
I am not Trying to blame all of the global economic woes on a government that has sat for barely 6 months is a little weak. at all.
Craigy #19
Your just and ideologue after all.
And it was only the other day that you were insisting that I am a leftist.
Keri #17
by your own measure he has not been at the job long enough to answer that, but I don’t think it necessarily follows that if things are not as bad as he suggests that it proves he is a good economic manager at all. All it proves is that he is good at spinning the message to make himself look competent.
Not so but that was to the focus of purpose of my piece anyway.
I have an unerring suspicion of anyone who tries to use the “trust me I’m an expert” line of argument and my focus was never to “read the market” that is what the speculators do. I was focused on the result of such “expertise” for the ordinary folks who have to run their families, buy groceries and put petrol in the car. You may see the decline in consumer confidence as a good thing but for the men and women running small business it is seriously bad if people do not have the confidence to buy their goods or services.
No I said that he has been inducing panic about Inflation and I never said that he has been responsible for economic mismanagement
what I actually said was
As my bold indicates I did not claim that it was twice the price it is now but “nearly” twice as much
Do you even own a car Keri? or is the cost of petrol just an academic matter to you?
I did not even imply that at all I have always believed that the sin of BN1 was to suggest , before the last election, that fuel and groceries would be cheaper under his regime and then to fail to make it so. The ETS just adds insult to injury and as I think that AGW is a crock of crap; I see it as a cure for a non existent disease with lots of very bad side effects for the ordinary people.
I set out to say that the measure of consumer confidence shows that people are hurting, to which you responded with “good that is as it should be” Then you chose to be offended when I would not immediately defer to your opinion because you claim some “expertise in economics”. As a conservative blogger I make a point of mocking Both BN1 and BN2 especially when I detect the preponderance of spin over substance why is that a sin on “planet Keri”?
I didn’t insist that you are a leftist Iain, you put up a post with the graphic that proved that you are!
Sarcasm Iain…..what you can’t see it??
I am not Trying to blame all of the global economic woes on a government that has sat for barely 6 months is a little weak. at all.
Yet you seem to insist with this general implication that all would be rosy were the Liberals still in power federally. I don’t think that even those economic maestros could figure out how to drastically reduce the price of a commodity that is simply becoming harder to supply. So lets reduce the excise by 5c. Awesome, now petrol will be 5c cheaper for about 3 weeks.
Intelligent people realise that this problem goes beyond their hip pocket Ian, which is why price rises in energy use is inevitable.
Even if the pundits ARE wrong about AGW, what’s the worst we can end up with? An economy based on sound environmental principles sounds pretty good to me. Sure there’ll be pain and adjustment but the survivors will be the ones who quit complaining and start figuring out how to work with what they’ve got.
Sorry, I’m hopeless with blogs, forgot the quote marks in the first sentence.
As a matter of principle I have previously objected to the way that with the GST is levied on petrol which results that we are paying a tax on a tax which comes to roughly 5 cents a litre but you will not find me championing the liberal proposal to reduce the excise by that amount.
I have been following the AGW issue for years and if as I believe they warminists are wrong the result of their attempts to hold back the tide will not be as benign as you imagine.
I have fixed the error in your post (#25) do you know the right HTML prompts to use for quotes bold ect? I can email some hints if you want because it is hard to post them in the comments.
Cheers
checked your link and I did not find the figure that you quote But the passage at the end of the article shows much less support than you claim.
Iain, you’ve quoted the figures yourself! Only 25% disagree with the ETS, and 56 percent were in favour of paying more for petrol and energy as a result of an ETS.
The sample size was not included and the fact that this is being sold as a motherhood issue suggests to me that some people are very likely saying what they think the survey wants to hear.
Where on earth are you getting the statement that this is a “motherhood issue” from? And what possible basis can you have that “some people are very likely saying what they think the survey wants to hear”? So far you’ve given only YOUR opinion that the government doesn’t know what the “common people” want, whilst I have done what you should have in the first place and found and linked to research on what people actually want.
I have an unerring suspicion of anyone who tries to use the “trust me I’m an expert” line of argument and my focus was never to “read the market” that is what the speculators do
This is the second time I’ll say this, Iain – I AM NOT CLAIMING TO BE AN EXPERT. What I was responding to was your patently incorrect assertation that I was being “conned” in regards to my opinion on economics. So I responded by explaining why your reading of the situation is incorrect, and added my qualifications. On what planet is it not germane to the conversation to declare your qualifications in the exact area you are debating? If we were talking about putting together cars, and I told you you were incorrect in some aspect, you would mention that you know how to do so, would you not?
I was focused on the result of such “expertise” for the ordinary folks who have to run their families ,buy groceries and put petrol in the car You may see the decline in consumer confidence as aa good thing but for the men and women running small business it is seriously bad if people do not have the confidence to buy their goods or services.
Jesus christ. Back to Economics 101 then. If you don’t accept the short term loss of consumer confidence, interest rates will continue to spiral out of control. People will pay more for their mortgage, which is, by and large, their biggest commitment. What would you prefer, Iain? You’ve got two choices. People can feel free to keep loading consumerist crap they do not need onto Credit Cards they probably can’t afford or they can keep interest rates at a more manageable level and keep a roof over their head. You think someone who has worked in mortgage lending doesn’t understand how disposable income is effected by market forces? Do me a lemon, Iain. THAT WAS MY JOB. FOR NEARLY NINE YEARS. You’ve seen and operated exactly one family budget. I’ve seen and assessed upwards of five thousand. Having a family does NOT instantly make YOU an expert in every field. If anything, it narrows your focus to what is immediately around you and what immediately effects you.
No I said that he has been inducing panic about Inflation
So what you’re saying is that Swan is telling us the economy is in worse shape than it is? What possible motive could he have for this, and what possible benefit could he get from making it look like he’s less in control than he is?
As my bold indicates I did not claim that it was twice the price it is now but “nearly” twice as much
The price of petrol has gone up, on average thirty cents in the last year. It could only be said to be anywhere near fifty percent unless the starting mean was 60 cents. For it to be a fifty per cent increase, it would need to be an increase of seventy cents. Which, all in all, means you have overstated the increase of petrol by a whopping 25%. That’s actually MORE than the increase itself!
Do you even own a car Keri? or is the cost of petrol just an academic matter to you
So, hang on. My choices are: own a car or the price of petrol is academic to me? Yes, very logical. I do not own a car at this exact moment, as it happens. But considering the price of petrol effects public transport costs as well as taxi prices, as well as oh, I don’t know, everything else I purchase or every other service I use, the subject can hardly be “purely academic” to me anymore than it could be “purely academic” to anyone else.
I did not even imply that at all I have always believed that the sin of BN1 was to suggest , before the last election, that fuel and groceries would be cheaper under his regime and then to fail to make it so.
Iain, four paragraphs ago you said that Swan et al. had not been in the job long enough to be judged on economic performance. Which is it? Have they, or haven’t they had long enough?
I set out to say that the measure of consumer confidence shows that people are hurting, to which you responded with “good that is as it should be” Then you chose to be offended when I would not immediately defer to your opinion because you claim some “expertise in economics”. As a conservative blogger I make a point of mocking Both BN1 and BN2 especially when I detect the preponderance of spin over substance why is that a sin on “planet Keri”?
Iain, it doesn’t show that people are hurting. It shows that the downward pressure on inflation IS WORKING. IT. IS. WORKING. The three years previous to the last financial year, we had record credit spend. THIS. IS. BAD in the current climate. Interest rates need to be controlled before anything else is considered. People, you beloved “Ordinary people”, need to be able to afford to pay their mortgage before they buy any kind of consumerish good (Are you aware that staples like petrol, food et al are not included in the consumer confidence calculations?)
“The ETS just adds insult to injury and as I think that AGW is a crock of crap; I see it as a cure for a non existent disease with lots of very bad side effects for the ordinary people.
Oh, and those Ordinary people? They don’t agree with you. I’ve provided a link to three studies that prove that. You’ve proven exactly nothing, except that YOU are the one out of touch with the “ordinary people”
Finally, Iain, I was not offended that you did not “immediately defer” to my opinion. I was surprised, and to be honest, pretty amused that you chose to be so blatantly condescending in regards to my experience (I never used the word expertise, Iain. YOU did) in finance, yet you chose to post on economic matters without a smattering of proof, other than an article that actually backs up what I’ve said.
Actually mixing the results of two different questions here.
Do the people really want to pay more for every commodity and service to mollify the deity of the green faith (via his bishops BN1 & BN2) or are they just willing to acquiesce to a new tax because they have been guilt tripped into it “for the sake of the planet” I have never met anyone who is truly happy to pay extra tax, maybe you are the exception.
You are making the classic argument from authority Keri as if that is the ultimate barbecue stopper, germane to the topic or not it is a lazy way to argue the point and it comes across as rather condescending.
Really? Are you one of those who think the economics is a “science”? That the innately chaotic web of human relationships can be predicted like a chemistry experiment?
There are always more than two choices Keri. it is not a dichotomy between credit card binging and paying the mortgage. Or can you explain why it is?
This is called trying to play the “expert card” with gritted teeth. and what have lemons got to do with the topic at hand?I have run that family budget for thirty years Keri and that is a rather different thing to looking a even 5000 budget summaries. What you are saying is that if you look at 5000 snapshots you know the people and how they live their lives.
But I am not claiming to be an expert in anything but I am clearly focused on a lot more than my immediate family experience.
Prior to the last election the predominate economic meme was that we have a good economy that has been managed well. BN2 has a vested interest in making his predecessor look bad so that he can look better in the eyes of the public; every incoming treasurer does precisely this and BN2 is no exception.
A year ago I was paying less than a dollar per litre. On a recent occasion I have had to pay $1.70 per litre You can split hairs all you like but thta is nearly double what it was a year ago anyway how would you know you don’t actually buy petrol at all.
You clearly don’t know what it is like Keri while the extra cost do eventually filter down to the transport service that you do use driving a car brings it home to you every time you fill the tank. I stand by it being an academic issue for you. I paid $90 to fill my car this week,a couple of months ago I could do it for $60 ,how much has your tram fare gone up lately?
It is not about “economic performance” it is about the difference between spin and substance.
But they are measured in the consumer price index are they not? and that is used to calculate the rate of inflation.
Keri Don’t pretend that you were not offended that your economic trump card did not impress me.You were or you would not be hammering the point here in the last comment.
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Have a look at what I’ve said, Iain. 25% disagree with an ETS, and more than half are happy to pay extra for it. That’s what I’ve said, and that’s what the study said. You quoted the figures yourself then stated you didn’t know where they came from.
Iain, once again, you are using you own opinion as the only evidence of things you are stating as fact. I have provided a link that has THREE STUDIES in it to disprove what you are saying. If you want to debate someone who is coming up with ACTUAL FACT AND PROVIDING YOU WITH THE LINKS TO IT, you are going to need more than your own opinion.
Exactly how is nine years of first-hand experience and extensive study the “lazy way to argue”? Your effort extended to quoting extensively from one article and then holding on to your beliefs no matter what evidence is put in front of you. Whilst mine was, as I usually do, to go away and reasearch the topic, and in this case use my own knowledge, rather than an arbitary position held with no evidence. I’ve gone away and done the homework, you’ve done nothing. Who is the lazy one?
How so? You claim to know the wishes of the “common people”, yet when presented with actual data about what the “common people want”, you ignore it for no other reason than it doesn’t tally with YOUR personal opinion.
Once again, you’ve contradicted yourself. Was “economic panic” around before the present government or not? Make up your mind.
Jesus, Iain. For once, just for ONCE, try and get your facts right. I’ve checked the average price for Queensland, and the average petrol price across every region has been higher than a dollar a litre since AUGUST 2005.
Here’s the link to where I’ve got the information from: http://www.aaa.asn.au/petrol/qld.xls
See, Iain? That’s called research and checking my facts. Works well, I think you’ll find.
You’re either forgetting what the petrol price was a year, two and nearly three years ago, or you are lying.
Eventually filter down? How much did something as staple as milk go up in the last year? Oh, that’s right, 30%. Besides which, not having to actually fill up with petrol does not make me oblivious to how much it costs. Or how much it will cost me in future. Or how the oil price (Which is the real issue, Iain) effects everything from the manufacture of plastic to the price of a head of bloody lettuce.
I’ll ask the question again. If Rudd and co. have not been in power long enough to be judged on their economic performance, how can you say that they’ve had long enough to effect the economy or not? If they promised to deliver something in the economy but haven’t been in power long enough (BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION) to do so, how can you judge them on it?
Iain, I believe you were referring to consumer confidence? I was the one who was saying inflation is going down and this was a good thing. By all means, start proving my points for me, but I would have thought you’d concentrate on the rest of that statement, and not the one sentence that proved my point.
I was not offended. I laughed. I nearly spat tea out of my nose. I thought it was hilarious. I didn’t expect my qualifications to impress you, I expected you might think a little more carefully about your reply and maybe do some research. I could have “pretended” to know nothing about the issue, but I thought it only fair to let you know you were dealing with someone who actually knew what they were talking about, as opposed to someone who just had an opinion and no facts.
Keri, don’t bash your head up against the wall.
You know Iain see’s you as ‘The Enemy’ because you post at Grods. He will just keep taking the opposite position to you like the true groupthink ideologue that he is.
You have clearly shown him to be lazy and illogically argumentative just for the sake of a fight with the filthy left.
You see he used to be one, and he has now swung to the extreme on the other side, he has learned nothing.
Iain, I’ve said it before, do some research and learn to admit when your wrong and eventually people would begin to respect your views, increasing your much lauded ‘hit count’.
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Keri, I keep track of what I my petrol purchases and I am speaking from personal experiences, not second hand averages (which probably includes the cost of very expensive fuel sources outside the S/e corner of the state where I live with competition and discounting the fuel was very often around $ 1 per litre I don’t know about your source because I can’t open the file) that is from personal experience from someone who actually buys petrol on a regular basis. You do not.
We are NOT talking about Milk or lettuce here Keri, we are talking about petrol, something that you concede you never buy and while all that you say in the passage above is correct none of that makes you so aware of the cost of energy like filling up the Falcon, knowing full well that it is going to “hurt” when you hand over your card at the counter. You have no idea beyond statistics Keri, as I said for you it is an academic point.
Some one in another place put it rather succinctly and I quote them by way of an answer to this question
As I said the reason they deserve mockery is that before they election they gave one impression and afterward they have begun to deliver something else entirely. The pre election stuff is the spin and what we have been delivered is the substance. they can be rightly mocked and judged at any time for doing this.
What? and give up the fun of mocking you Craigy?
I’m glad you are enjoying yourself Iain.
Iain, are you willfully trying to make yourself look stupid? The fact that I don’t own a car right at this moment doesn’t proclude me from either knowing what petrol prices are or from experiencing the pleasure of paying for petrol.
As it happens, I have had that happy experience for a period of four years when I shared the cost of running a car with my ex-partner. Considering we were surviving on only my salary as he was studying at Uni, I know what it’s like to run a falcon (Because we actually owned a Falcon, Iain) on one salary. Anything else?
Iain, I’ve checked the prices for every region in Queensland in the last ten years. Including Caboolture, which I believe is the closest they have data on. Are you suggesting that you were paying a full fifty cents less than at service stations thirty five kms away? You’re either incorrect in your memory or you are lying, Iain. I’ve got access to the data from service stations around the country, and you are not correct. You couldn’t have been paying less than a dollar a year ago. That’s lower than the wholesale price was in South East Queensland a year ago.
Again, I never said I never bought petrol either, Iain. I said I didn’t own a car at the moment. Don’t twist my words.
“As I said the reason they deserve mockery is that before they election they gave one impression and afterward they have begun to deliver something else entirely. The pre election stuff is the spin and what we have been delivered is the substance. they can be rightly mocked and judged at any time for doing this.”
You stated yourself that they have not been in power long enough for their economic management to be judged. Since the promises of which you speak relate to the economy, how can you say it’s spin? You couldn’t tell unless they have been in power long enough for their economic performance to be judged.
Keri
I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this one, because I think that you are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you.
How is the prison reform piece coming along BTW?
Cheers
I haven’t had a bloody chance to finish it because I’ve been moments I have my with you about the price of bloody petrol in bloody South East Queensland for the last three bloody days!
Oh, that comment delights me in the lack of sense it makes.