My resident ultra-leftist who goes by the moniker “Suburban Marxist” has made several attempts to divert a previous thread about the left and Islam on to the topic of this morning’s post, Izhar ul-Haque. So SM this one is for you 
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The scourge of our age is without doubt the terrorist bomb, and the privileging of the afterlife over the real life of the here and now by the extremist followers of Islam. The problem for many followers of that faith is the fuzzy line between piety and extremism is so easy to cross and very few seem to come back from that vile fringe when the have crossed into it’s orbit. I really do hope that Izhar ul-Haaque is one of the few who has seen the light because one thing that even he does not deny is that he did dabble in that very dark side. He dabbled enough to travel overseas and to train with Lashkar-e-taiba.
Lodhi, a Sydney architect, was found guilty last year of making preparations for a terrorist act and sentenced to 20 years in prison. He had encouraged Mr ul-Haque to go to a Lashkar-e-Taiba training camp in Pakistan in 2003, a visit that lasted less than three weeks after Mr ul-Haque realised he wanted to be a doctor, not a jihadist fighting in Kashmir.
Mr ul-Haque’s activities were well known to authorities - he had revealed all when he returned from Pakistan - but it was only after suspicions about Lodhi’s behaviour and links to the convicted French terrorist Willy Brigitte emerged eight months later that Mr ul-Haque became of interest.
But he refused to become an informant, saying: “I did not know much about Lodhi and what it seemed like, from all the searches and investigations, that he was somewhat a dangerous person … I cannot have a double face and, I’m sorry, I won’t be able to do this for you.”
Now I think that his flirting with such organization is clearly in contravention of our laws against training with terrorist organisations passed subsequent to 9/11 and he did deserve a criminal sanction for his little holiday camp adventure, but he also deserves some mercy and credit for his change of heart and decision to disavow Jihad. That is an entirely separate issue to the way that he has been treated by the police and ASIO.
I have the greatest respect for the police and ASIO as organisations but when it comes to matters of combating the Jihadists it imperative that they act in a legally defensible manner at all times. I am angered and disappointed that there have been some very obvious shortcomings in the way that some more recent cases have been pursued, because such errors may have made it easier for would be Jihadists to either carry out an atrocity or to avoid legal sanction for conspiring to do so. My Pal from the far left, SM clearly, from his comments elsewhere, wants to suggest that there is no threat from the Jihadists and that the greater threat is from the excesses of our own police forces and security agencies. Well I no more want to see excesses or errors in legal protocol from our police and ASIO than he does, but that does not mean that the threat from holiday excursions like that taken by Izhar ul-Haque are not real as SM and his ilk would have us believe. The real test, as a society is how we manage to get the balance right between protecting personal liberty and defending this country from those who would unleash death and destruction upon it in the name of their god. We clearly have not got it quite right yet but that does not mean that we can ignore the problem because of the indiscretions a couple of federal agents.
Cheers comrades 
‘Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.’ B. Franklin.
Wise words.
Sure MM but what do you do when faced with those who would exploit those same liberties to facilitate acts that are attacking the fundamental foundations for those same liberties?
As it has always been it is a balancing act between competing interests, between individual liberties and the right of the people not to be subject to atrocities at the hands of extremists. How would you draw the right balance?
It’s hard I admit but clearly a culture is developing within the AFP and ASIO that’s ultimately couter productive. This has to be addressed or else.
You’ve got mail.
“…wants to suggest that there is no threat from the Jihadists and that the greater threat is from the excesses of our own police forces and security agencies.”
Well then he really should move away from this ‘police-state’ Australia, go live over in Iran or something, after all there is no threat from Islam and it’s all tolerant and peaceful and beautiful flowers and all that, isn’t it.
“We clearly have not got it quite right yet but that does not mean that we can ignore the problem because of the indiscretions a couple of federal agents.”
But Iain, it’s becoming increasingly clear to even the most staunch supporters of the ‘War on Terror’ that its not the indiscretion of a couple of federal agents that is behind the real, and current attacks on our liberties (as opposed to the current, non-existent attacks on our liberties by Jihadists) but rather a conscious political strategy. Referring again to an article in the Australian from this week that I placed in a comment on the other post, “A SENIOR counter-terrorism officer with the Australian Federal Police has testified that police were directed to charge “as many suspects as possible” with terrorism offences in order to test the new anti-terrorism laws introduced in 2003.”
The author of the article concludes that “…“The disturbing inference, which is seemingly confirmed by Mr Lam Paktsun’s testimony, is that terrorism prosecutions are being driven not by a reliance on evidence but by a political imperative to obtain convictions.”..”.
That is, that the terrorism prosecutions (plural…suggesting that more than ‘a couple of federal agents’ are involved) are being driven by a political strategy aimed a demonising Muslims, whipping up racism and stripping away civil liberties.
In terms of the threat of terrorism from Jihadists, I don’t at all think there is a negligible threat. But the fact remains that for the last six years of the ‘War on Terror’ there has yet to be a Jihadist terrorist attack in this country. At the same time, Australian citizens (and the odd Indian doctor) HAVE had their rights denied them and treated with contempt. And this has occurred because the repressive agencies of the state (the AFP, ASIO, etc).
And I submit to you that given the recent performance of these agencies (and you yourself acknowledged as much in the above post) it is unlikely attacks have been foiled due to their use of their increased powers.
Furthermore, I think its quite apparent to many that it is this government’s support for US policies in the MidEast, and the racist campaigns targeting Muslim’s in this country, that increase the risk of an attack happening. Strengthening the powers of the police, AFP, ASIO and the like will not decrease the risk of a Jihadist attack but will possibly make it more likely and also endanger our own rights and liberties. The powers of Howard’s Australian Building and Construction Commission (this week banning union stickers and the Eureka flag from workplaces) which are aimed a largely white workers, are a salutary reminder that the powers the state is abrogating itself could one day be used against us all.
p.s Iain, I appreciate you having gone to the effort to engage in the argument with me, even though we clearly disagree. I’d like to write more once I have some more time
Now, I’m not saying I’ve never been asked to leave a
, but this is an example of how the government’s policies filter down through the rest of society, to our detriment…
licensed premise before
“BOUNCERS kicked a Melbourne man out of a Cairns pub after patrons complained that he was reading a book titled The Unknown Terrorist.”
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22760798-2862,00.html
I actually see no problem at all with charging as many suspects as possible SM as long as it is done properly under the law. The thing that those, like yourself, seem to so blithely ignore is that without a rigorous effort to thwart the Jihadist plots there would have been a Bali or 9/11 atrocity here and then the you would have been screaming about police/ intelligence negligence in letting that atrocity happen. The reality is that we have enough convicted terrorists doing their Halal porridge to show that the threat is in fact real.
The fact that can not be disputed is that if you look at the litany of terrorist bombings of western cities since 9/11 almost without exception they have been committed in the name of Allah, and it is entirely reasonable that this fact should not be wrapped up in pretty ribbons to save anyone’s feelings. In any case I think that there are very few people indeed who are inspired to ‘racism” as a result.
True but we do have at least one chap doing time for planning a serious bombing don’t we? And several others awaiting trial for similar conspiracies. The fact that we have not had a successful bombing is really down to the vigilance of the police and security services that you so scorn
Look I know it’s Marxist orthodoxy to view any and all police agencies as instruments of repression but when the result of inaction with regard to the threat of the Jihadist could be another Bali bombing here on our soil You have to concede that what we face is not a simple dichotomy here but rather it is a balancing act and although the police response has not been perfect no response would have been disastrous.
The fact that Fahed Lohdi is doing time suggests otherwise SM
You can not negotiate with these people SM nor will pandering to their absurd conspiracy theories and anti-Semitic ravings make one bit of difference to the Jihadist campaigns against the west because it is secularism and modernity that most inspire their hatred against us and not the foreign policies of our or any other western society.
The thing is to prevent a Bali on our soil the police et al have to get it right all of the time !100% effectiveness in stopping such plots requires a truly heroic effort but the price of even one failure is actually too horrendous to contemplate. And I ask you would you be willing to offer up members of your family as sacrifices to your notion of civil liberties? Willing to have to tell a mother that her child has been killed, by a bomb in a shopping mall? I really do value our civil liberties, heck I even marched in the streets of Brisbane against Joh’s attempts at repression. But as I say in the piece we have to strike the right balance I concede that we are not there yet but we can’t just ignore the threat and hope we don’t end up regretting it .
Frankly when you are an employee I see no reason why you should have any right to display any political propaganda in your employer’s premises and please explain your last sentence here, in particular your apparently racist remark about “white ” workers.
SM I actually enjoy engaging with my political opposites I may be sarcastic or even dismissive in response but never think that your input is not welcome.
We don’t know all of the details but I think that you draw a rather long bow to reach that conclusion.